D&D is not a supers game.

[Fifth Element]

4e is also the only edition where it is almost impossible for a 1st level character (or any other level character) to kill an equal level/hd opponent in one hit. Swings and roundabouts.

Exactly. Some people see a 1st-level character's hp in 4E, being used to earlier editions, and assume they're mega heroes. I guess they forget to check how many hp an orc has.

 

[Mallus]

I'm honestly unsure of this... but is 4e the only edition where a 1st level character cannot possibly be killed by a single hit from an equal level/HD opponent?

Kinda. In AD&D, for example, it depends on the 1st level character. It was common for some classes/characters to be virtually immune to one-shotting from like-level opponents. It wasn't impossible, but from a practical standpoint, it was extremely unlikely.

Consider: an orc can do a maximum of 8 points of damage with a single hit. That's enough to kill any magic-users and thieves (if you weren't using the death's door, unconscious at zero, dead at -10 option), but not clerics (w/high CON), fighters, cavaliers, or barbarians (and their subclasses). It was also common, in my experience, to grant PCs maximum HP at first level, meaning a fighter with no CON adjustment had 10 HP, a barbarian 12 HP, and a ranger 16 HP.

BTW, this means the barbarian and ranger can't be killed by a single hit from an ogre (max 10 per hit).

And it was uncommon from what I saw in actual play for martial PCs to not have a positive CON adj.

EDIT: OAN: Is it the only edition where full hp recovery is granted after an 8 hour rest?

This is true.

 

[Imaro]

4e is also the only edition where it is almost impossible for a 1st level character (or any other level character) to kill an equal level/hd opponent in one hit. Swings and roundabouts.

The argument wasn't about whether monsters were stronger... but you are wrong since 4e has minions so there are actually a ton of monsters 4e characters can kill with one blow that are of equal level.

In theory or in practice? Because 3.X had the mistake of making the cheap and easily craftable Wand of Cure Light Wounds making healing much more abundant even than in 4e.

I didn't say with magic, but nice way to try and move the goalposts (also I don't remember those wands being all that available, without DM intervention at 1st level either).

It's a simple question... is there any other edition where every character can heal themselves fully from resting 8 hours?

 

[Imaro]

Exactly. Some people see a 1st-level character's hp in 4E, being used to earlier editions, and assume they're mega heroes. I guess they forget to check how many hp an orc has.

Orc Drudge: Level 4 Minion.
AC: 16 Fort: 15 Ref: 12 Will: 12
HP: 1

Easily killable in one hit from a 1st level 4e character.

 

[Imaro]

Kinda. In AD&D, for example, it depends on the 1st level character. An orc can do a maximum of 8 points of damage with a single hit.

That's enough to kill any magic-users and thieves (if you weren't using the death's door, unconscious at zero, dead at -10 option), but not clerics (w/high CON), fighters, cavaliers, or barbarians (and their subclasses). It was also common, in my experience, to grant PCs maximum HP at first level, meaning a fighter with no CON adjustment had 10 HP, a barbarian 12 HP, and a ranger 16 HP.

BTW, this means the barbarian and ranger can't be killed by a single hit from an [/i]ogre (max 10 per hit).

And it was uncommon from what I saw in actual play for martial PCs to not have a positive CON adj.


This is true.

Ok, cool... thanks Mallus. I'm not the most experienced with pre-WotC editions and that's why I stated upfront I was unsure... of course this still doesn't approach the durability of a 4e character.

 

[Argyle King]

Exactly. Some people see a 1st-level character's hp in 4E, being used to earlier editions, and assume they're mega heroes. I guess they forget to check how many hp an orc has.

While I would never use the term 'mega heroes,' I would say that -for me personally- that view would come from monsters of pretty much any level not having much (if any) chance against equal PCs. Even monsters of higher levels have trouble against lower PCs. As the PCs level up, it only gets worse.

I've read plenty of stories in which people talk about rampant TPKs in 4E; I really have no way to relate to it because that has not been anywhere near my experience with the game -not any of the times I've gone 1-30. When running games, I've hurt (and killed PCs,) but I was not running stock 4E; the version of 4E I run has been modified enough that (while being the same game) it functions quite differently than the RAW game.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The argument wasn't about whether monsters were stronger... but you are wrong since 4e has minions so there are actually a ton of monsters 4e characters can kill with one blow that are of equal level.

Nice way to move the goalposts there. You said equal level/hd. And minions are a mechanic that make monsters that are emphatically not meant to be a threat to the PCs 1:1 into monsters worth paying attention to who still aren't a significant threat to the PCs. They may technically be the same level but emphatically aren't the same hit dice equivalent.

And if you're going to play that way then I'm going to tell you that by using your rules a first level monster almost certainly can 1-shot a 1st level 4e PC. If that first level monster happens to be a Dragon (e.g. the Young White from Monster Vault) or other L1 solo (Id Fiend, Dark Sun Creature Guide also springs to mind). But using them as examples of equal level monsters would be silly. Every bit as silly as silly as claiming that minions are equal level.

I didn't say with magic, but nice way to try and move the goalposts (also I don't remember those wands being all that available, without DM intervention at 1st level either).

It's a simple question... is there any other edition where every character can heal themselves fully from resting 8 hours?

You didn't say without magic either. And didn't specify at level 1 in that challenge. According to the Wealth By Level rules, and using the DMG's guidance for magic item shops, PCs can afford Wands of Cure Light Wounds from Level 2. So there's a grand total of 1 level where PCs can't heal up almost at will in 3.X unless the DM deviates from the guidelines in the DMG. W00t!

Edit: The Orc Drudge is not an Orc Warrior. In 3.X terms he'd be a level 1 Orc Commoner. And almost certainly have a lower strength than most orcs - if he could fight effectively he'd have his chance at being a warrior at the very least.

 

[Imaro]

While I would never use the term 'mega heroes,' I would say that -for me personally- that view would come from monsters of pretty much any level having much (if any) chance against equal PCs. Even monsters of higher levels have trouble against lower PCs. As the PCs level up, it only gets worse.

I've read plenty of stories in which people talk about rampant TPKs in 4E; I really have no way to relate to it because that has not been anywhere near my experience with the game -not any of the times I've gone 1-30. When running games, I've hurt (and killed PCs,) but I was not running stock 4E; the version of 4E has been modified enough that (while being the same game) it functions quite differently than the RAW game.

I've noticed that often, though not always, the stories of TPK's tend to have one of two things in common...

A.) The players are just starting 4e and thus it can be attributed more to unfmiliarity with the game, their characters, the other player's characters, etc, or...

B.) It's that the encounter basically breaks the given guidelines. As an example the Iroontooth encounter from KoS is often cited... but a hard encounter is defined as 2-4 levels above your PC's and Iroontooth was 5 levels above the PC's, and even then many parties defeated the encounter without a TPK.

On a side note, it makes me wonder if the guidelines for 4e encounter building are actually as good as people claim or do they just minimize party death and thus get less slack for being inaccurate than CR and EL.

 

[Imaro]

Nice way to move the goalposts there. You said equal level/hd. And minions are a mechanic that make monsters that are emphatically not meant to be a threat to the PCs 1:1 into monsters worth paying attention to who still aren't a significant threat to the PCs. They may technically be the same level but emphatically aren't the same hit dice equivalent.

4e doesn't have hit die... so there's only level. I included HD in reference to earlier editions. And no, it's not moving the goalposts, it's something 4e fans conveniently ignore when talking about the ramped up power feel of 4e characters... yet it plays a significant part in it.

And if you're going to play that way then I'm going to tell you that by using your rules a first level monster almost certainly can 1-shot a 1st level 4e PC. If that first level monster happens to be a Dragon (e.g. the Young White from Monster Vault) or other L1 solo (Id Fiend, Dark Sun Creature Guide also springs to mind). But using them as examples of equal level monsters would be silly. Every bit as silly as silly as claiming that minions are equal level.

You didn't say without magic either. And didn't specify at level 1 in that challenge. According to the Wealth By Level rules, and using the DMG's guidance for magic item shops, PCs can afford Wands of Cure Light Wounds from Level 2. So there's a grand total of 1 level where PCs can't heal up almost at will in 3.X unless the DM deviates from the guidelines in the DMG. W00t!

Uhmm, the Young White is a level 3 Solo Brute... not a level one. The Id FIend is a level one solo and his strongest attack does 2d6+5... so between 7 and 17 points of damage... I'm not seeing a one shot here. So yeah, both examples fall short.

I said by resting... where does "resting" inherently include magic? Unless youre definition of resting is totally different from the definition in the books. they are different dynamics and generate different feels in the game.

 

[Imaro]

Edit: The Orc Drudge is not an Orc Warrior. In 3.X terms he'd be a level 1 Orc Commoner. And almost certainly have a lower strength than most orcs - if he could fight effectively he'd have his chance at being a warrior at the very least.

... Riiiight. I'm sure if we squint hard enough and go through contortions (especially forgetting the fact he's not a level 1 monster but a level 4 monster in 4e... there's some way to justify it. Whatever man.