• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E D&D Lingua Franca, or 5e really, REALLY needs to create it's own new "space"

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
True enough, but it's still more meaningful to a new reader than 'close burst 3'

Burst 3 - 3 square radius, centered on the player

Close - can be used in Close Combat safely

Hmmm

Seems easy enough

Actually the 20' thing has hidden jargon. On the tabletop, you have to know each square is 5'. That's not immediately obvious that 1 square = 5' Does a 30' radius mean 6 squares or not? And don't even get me started on diagonal movement in 3E. Ever seen a new player find those intuitive?

Squares are far more intuitive than feet, tbh.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Jack99

Adventurer
Burst 3 - 3 square radius, centered on the player

Close - can be used in Close Combat safely

Hmmm

Seems easy enough

Actually the 20' thing has hidden jargon. On the tabletop, you have to know each square is 5'. That's not immediately obvious that 1 square = 5' Does a 30' radius mean 6 squares or not? And don't even get me started on diagonal movement in 3E. Ever seen a new player find those intuitive?

Squares are far more intuitive than feet, tbh.

Actually, the close part means that the burst is centered on the caster, as opposed of an area burst, which is centered elsewhere.
 

Nyronus

First Post
Let my just throw my hat in on the side of Jargon. Consistent game terminology makes for a consistent game. Well constructed terminology means a well constructed game. 4e, in my opinion, got it pretty good. As much as people whine about "game-y"ness, 4e's language seemed fairly intuitive to me. Standard actions were what you did on a standard turn: namely hit stuff with magic and weapons. Healing Surge may seem gamey but it makes sense. Its a surge of vitality and will and that galvinizes you into recovering lost stamina (i.e., heal). I would have preferred "Vitality Surge" as a concept and "Vitality/Vitality Points" as a unit of measure, as opposed to Healing and Healing Surge, respectively, what it all can't be perfect.

No, 4e got it pretty good ... but there were issues that plagued it for years, and some still do. How does one wield a Monk Unarmed Strike, exactly? Can you wield two at once? For years we had no idea if keywords were hard-coded or dynamic. Does turning your fireball into a frostball make it gain the cold keyword and lose the fire one? For a while we had no clue. Does it seem like stupid B.S.? Yes. Mostly because it was. But certain moving pieces of the game depended on that stupid B.S.. Do all my feats which effect powers with the fire keyword still work on my frost balls? Do my cold keyword feats work on my frost ball that is counted as a fire attack? Without a clear language its pretty much up to the DM to toss in a hail mary and see what happens. CharOP still doesn't know if a Ranger/Monk can Twin Strike with Unarmed Strike. Most people would admit that they can, but interpreting rules one way has implications throughout the system, and very often a systemically inconsistent system will have counter intuitive results for both interpretations.

Unclear rules lead to an unclear game. Honestly, one of the most horrifying things about that alpha leak a few weeks back was the verbose "can often cast the spell quick enough to still take a full turn" lunacy (well, that and the Christlessly bad monster system). What does that even mean? How often is often? How many "often quick enough" actions can I squeeze into a turn. Can I draw two potions? Ten? fifty? At least minor action was consitent and, to me, intuitive. This just seems lazy and verbose.

I also dread a return to "plain language" spells. Right now I'm preparing for a 3.5 game and am building a Focused Specialist Necromancer, and one of my forbidden schools is Evocation. Luckily, I kept illusion and the wonderful spell Shadow Evocation it has. Now, the thing is, my optimizing wizard-guru buddy says one of the worst things lost by giving up Evocation is Contingency. Luckily, Greater Shadow Evocation fixes this... or does it? See, no one seems to know how Contingency and Greater Shadow Evocation interact. Who exactly is getting effected by the Shadow Contingency? Me? Am I being "effected" by the Contingency? Its kind of ambiguous. I'm weaving magic around myself yes... but it does nothing to me other than cast a wholly separate spell at a later date. So, what does it effect, me or the spell? Furthermore, that just gets silly. I make a will save and if I fail I get to cast my own spell?

Furthermore, how does Contingency interact with other spells? The spell Contingency casts "must be one that affects your person." Awesome. Finger of Death affects my person. Doesn't say I have to aim it at my person. Assuming that doesn't fly (and it probably shouldn't), taking a less obnoxious interpretation, let's say I set up a Contingent Haste. It affects my person... and the persons of my entire party. Does the Contingent Haste effect JUST my person, or does it merely need to INCLUDE my person? If so, if I set up a Contingent Fireball (assuming I have fire resistance), can I take my enemies with me, or does it burn only me and somehow not anyone else for no adequately explained reason? The rules may explain it elsewhere, but there is no bloody way I can tell which is the right way to read the spell just by looking at it, and looking at the SRD, I can't find anywhere where it defines exactly what it means by "affect."

A system with unclear rules is an unclear system. Each one of these questions effects the interactions and tactics available to a party. Can my wizard turn himself into a living booby trap, or set up a surprise speed buff for the party? Or not? Its important that players understand these things, and the simpler they are to understand, the less likely hurt feelings are to arise at the table from "no, that doesn't work and you wasted character resources setting it up" or "Yes it does and your a dumb DM to rule otherwise!" The rules exist to help us determine the action of a world we imagine. If we can't agree on how terminal velocity works, or what chemicals make gunpowder, things get weird quick. So, I say: bring on the jargon! Bring on the manual language! Keywords! Gameyisms! Call it a spell or a power, a vital point or a healing surge! I don't care, as long as you can teach it to me and have it make sense!
 


I don't think it's just the jargon though. It's what the jargon represents in the first place. The game got a whole lot more complicated.

You're talking about 3E here? With the massively layered buff spells (and Dispel Magic), the 36 distinct skills (not counting craft (basketweaving) as separate from craft (fletching)), the multiclassing and prestige class options, the feat trees, and much much more. 4e is a whole lot simpler than 3e.

I don't want to play a tactical wargame.

Then you must have hated AD&D with its movement speeds measured in inches. Or OD&D which grew out of tactical wargaming. And the Cleric Class, explicitely designed as the counter to another wargamer's vampire should be right out.

I don't want to play a MMORPG converted to paper, with the MMORPGs roles converted to classes (Tank, DPS, Controller, Healer)

Remind me which MMO has these roles precisely? Because I can think of obvious source material. AD&D 2e. With its four headings - fighter, magic user, cleric, thief. Direct mapping to tank, controller, healer, and utility (rather than DPR).

and things like aggro mechanics (taunt and such)

I guess you don't want to play any game with published rules for Kender then (not that I blame you for that). I also guess you don't want to play 3e with actual taunt mechanics on the knight class.

4e has very little in the way of taunts. Marking is not a taunt. Taunts are mind control. Marking is threatening and punishment. The fighter's mark is being a bodyguard - it's like marking on the basketball court.

and with characters getting a new power/skill button to press every level.

You really really don't like 3e, do you? New spells every level for the casters, new abilities for almost everyone.

Now, can we cut the edition war please? Or if you don't want to cut it out,

I find some 4E jargon bad, like "Healing Surges" (granted, maybe more the concept than the word),

I like the concept of healing surges - the name and the explanation leave a little something to be desired however. If you treat healing surges as hit points, and hit points as shock then everything works nicely.

Powers (8th level spell seems more evocative of a "real thing")

Interesting. I have no problem with calling them Powers (I'd rather use "Abilities"). But "8th level spell" seems to me to carry a massive amount of implied fluff. One in which all wizards belong to guilds and your guild ranking is based on the level of spell you can cast.
 

KidSnide

Adventurer
Let my just throw my hat in on the side of Jargon. Consistent game terminology makes for a consistent game. Well constructed terminology means a well constructed game. 4e, in my opinion, got it pretty good. As much as people whine about "game-y"ness, 4e's language seemed fairly intuitive to me.

I don't think 4e has a lot of bad jargon (except for power and power source, which are out-of-genre), but there's just too much of it. I like a game with clear rules, but it's a cost-benefit analysis. WotC can't specify everything, so they have always face the choice of (1) printing more rules to cover the same material, (2) leaving rules unspecified or (3) limiting what can be done within the rules.

Given the difficulty some of my (bright and well educated) players have keeping track of it all, WotC created a system that is too complicated and precise in 4e, at least for my group. Yes, the precision is a virtue, but I don't think it's worth the cost.

-KS
 

hanez

First Post
I don't like the jargon or the extra codifying of so many things. I understand that we need some terms (HP, Attack of Opportunity, Daily, ect) but I feel 4e went to far in simplifying the content and helped make it less interesting and magical to me. For example the book was full of "encounter powers", but I much preferred simple language like "you can do this 3 times a day". I also prefer it mechanically, as we have seen once the encounter jargon was made, the idea of being able to do something "3 times a day" became pretty foreign to D&D. I like plain language because it allows for more possibilities, and more nuances.

It reminds me of Magic the gathering, Originally they had cards like All hallows eve, that were interesting, magical, and required you to figure out how they worked. It made the game feel more interesting to me.

2.jpg


But then they wanted it more accessible (understandably). So they made a term for everything, and when they invented a term, every single card had to have cycling, or flanking or zen or whatever and they really overused these terms and made them feel less magical and more generic.

4.jpg


So I don't know, I'm not anti jargon or anything. But theres a sweet spot. For me, opening up the spell list, reading the spell, and thinking and imagining what it does is VERY important to me. This feeling was definitely lessened in the way 4e was presented.


btw I posted this in another topic a second before it closed, so Im reposting it here.
 

Estlor

Explorer
I LOLed a little when I read the assertion that 4e's over-abundance of keywords was a turn-off. Someone should finger their way through a 3e Monster Manual (any manual) if they want to see excessive keywords and jargon in play. Now, I'm not knocking 3e by saying this, because I (at the time) supported and applauded the design initiative to pull over the universal terms from Magic and apply them to monsters. But they got layers to the point where you needed a decoder ring to remember everything that monster entry was telling you. 4e took this concept and tried to streamline it. It's not entirely unfair to say they may have gone too far as it became a little clinical to read, but is it really different to express my speed at 6 or as 30 feet when each square on a grid = 5 feet?

Re: The term "Powers" is bad jargon because it doesn't fit the genre - Keep in mind "Powers" is a generic, over-arching term like "Race" or "Class." Technically there aren't any powers in the world. Only Exploits, Spells, Prayers, Evocations, Disciplines, and Hexes. The term "power" only exists to express an equivalency so people won't argue Spell <> Prayer as a rule unit.

Actually, "Power" is really just a way of formatting/encapsulating a unit of rules as it is. So it loses meaning when you step out of the abstract and start to talk say, "My fighter has three encounter powers." No, you have three powers. They happen to be encounter exploits. Your wizard buddy has three powers that happen to be encounter spells.

Poe-tay-toe, Poe-tah-toe, I realize.
 

Janaxstrus

First Post
I LOLed a little when I read the assertion that 4e's over-abundance of keywords was a turn-off. Someone should finger their way through a 3e Monster Manual (any manual) if they want to see excessive keywords and jargon in play. Now, I'm not knocking 3e by saying this, because I (at the time) supported and applauded the design initiative to pull over the universal terms from Magic and apply them to monsters. But they got layers to the point where you needed a decoder ring to remember everything that monster entry was telling you. 4e took this concept and tried to streamline it. It's not entirely unfair to say they may have gone too far as it became a little clinical to read, but is it really different to express my speed at 6 or as 30 feet when each square on a grid = 5 feet?

Re: The term "Powers" is bad jargon because it doesn't fit the genre - Keep in mind "Powers" is a generic, over-arching term like "Race" or "Class." Technically there aren't any powers in the world. Only Exploits, Spells, Prayers, Evocations, Disciplines, and Hexes. The term "power" only exists to express an equivalency so people won't argue Spell <> Prayer as a rule unit.

Actually, "Power" is really just a way of formatting/encapsulating a unit of rules as it is. So it loses meaning when you step out of the abstract and start to talk say, "My fighter has three encounter powers." No, you have three powers. They happen to be encounter exploits. Your wizard buddy has three powers that happen to be encounter spells.

Poe-tay-toe, Poe-tah-toe, I realize.

Yes, it really is different to express speed in terms of squares instead of feet.
Yes, it's really offputting to read about "powers" in a fantasy game, instead of spells. Powers evoke the super hero genre to me, not fantasy.

You can keep arguing, but how I feel about the jargon isn't going to change. Same with the untold others who feel the same, and just like you and others who like it won't be swayed.

It is a common complaint, and regardless of your personal feelings ont he matter, Wizards can't really afford to just brush it off. (all of course, in my opinion)
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Yes, it really is different to express speed in terms of squares instead of feet.
Yes, it's really offputting to read about "powers" in a fantasy game, instead of spells. Powers evoke the super hero genre to me, not fantasy.
It is different, but be that good or bad is a matter of opinion. Personally given that angular movement with squares is not the same as forward or lateral movement with feet, measuring movement/distance in "squares" IMO is less off-putting. Measuring distance in feet is great if you have no grid, but I prefer not to dig out the ruler.
Super-hero is a branch of fantasy, modern fantasy. It's not modern S&S, that's something else, but most super-heroes fit into the traditional fantasy tropes of "armored warrior"(Iron Man/Steel), "at-range caster"(Dr Light, Dr Fate(who, BTW is literally a wizard)) or "skill-monkey"(Batman/Huntress).

While "powers" being used universally may not have been the key, I did like "sources", I felt it gave a much clearer indication of where this class's background is based in and how their abilities should be structured. And now mind you, "powers" was just a general term, each power source generally had it's own specific term. Paladin's and Clerics had "prayers", Wizards/Bards had spells, ect... We could call Fighter "powers" "Maneuvers" or "tactics" or something martially-feeling. I agree that "powers" may not have been the right word, but I think looking at things in terms of power sources was beneficial.

It is a common complaint, and regardless of your personal feelings ont he matter, Wizards can't really afford to just brush it off. (all of course, in my opinion)
No, but neither are they obligated to change it.
 

Remove ads

Top