D&D 5E D&D Magic: Does it Feel Magical to You?

Dausuul

Legend
No, and it never has. D&D magic has always felt very "technological" to me; wizards are scientists (or, for PC wizards, battlefield engineers) in a universe where physics has different rules. You do X and Y happens. To me, magic should feel more organic and living, an unpredictable force with a will of its own.

That said, the "do X, Y happens" approach is the most straightforward and manageable one for an RPG magic system.
 
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n0nym

Explorer
D&D magic doesn't feel really magical to me neither. I think it's too limited and well defined, and even though some spells could be used in unusual ways, it's hard to be really creative.

I also dislike at-will cantrips. To me magic should be extremely rare in order to keep a sense of wonder (like it is in A Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones). At-will damage cantrips feel just like Star Wars blasters to me... And blasters are not magic, they're technology.
 

Hussar

Legend
Not that I'm disagreeing with the distaste for this, but... did you play 1e AD&D? Because it was even more pronounced there. Instead of just hitting a simple sphere, Fireball filled a volume, so if you cast it into a small room (say) it could overflow and hit you with the backdraft. As a result, there was a lot of number crunching with Fireball to make sure it only hit what you wanted it to.

Lightning Bolt had similar tactical issues. I don't remember whether it was true of other spells as well, but those definitely stood out, and I think 5e's simplicity is a vast improvement for most people.

This brings up an interesting point though. While I agree that the blow back part is a major PITA, it does serve a purpose. Magic is dangerous. You can be guaranteed that when the wizard player says, "I'm dropping a fireball", the entire table pays attention. :D There was a chance, sometimes a pretty decent chance, of killing your buddy when dropping this spell.

Now, in application, yeah, it was far, far too fiddly. It's fine if every room is square or rectangular, but, as soon as you had an irregular shaped room, fergeddaboudit. My 15 year old brain wasn't going to calculate the volume of that cavern. Just wasn't going to happen. :D

But, there were a number of spells that worked on similar premises. Haste could kill you. Not likely, but, it could. It did age you a year. Teleport could kill you. Polymorph could kill you. Heck, Raise Dead could kill you even deader. :p

This goes a long way towards my point of magic being sanitised. Magic in 5e rarely has negative side effects, and, because of the battle map (which 5e didn't start, true, but, does use), using magic is a lot more simply a math exercise. How many orcs can you fit into a circle with a radius of 20 feet? :D
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think part of the problem lies in the use of the word "magical" itself. Its definition can be very personal, which leads to us talking past each other. So I'm going to fork the question into component parts. Instead of using "feel magical," I'm going to use "invoke awe or appear mysterious." This is more specific, and thus clearer as to what I'm actually saying. "Magic" breaks into its now four prime elements: cantrips, spellcasting, rituals, and items.

Do cantrips invoke awe or appear mysterious?
No--except in unusual situations. Sometimes, such usable-on-command magic can be exciting or awe-inspiring (I'm thinking stuff like the 4e Wizard's "Cantrip" feature--not at-will attacks, but the unique non-combat spells like Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, etc.), but the vast majority of such magic is intentionally workhorse. This does not have to devalue magic in your game...IF you can get on board with the idea that something *we* would consider flabbergasting is an everyday action to certain characters. It's the equivalent of transporters and replicators in Star Trek--to us, these things are incredible, but to a 24th-century Starfleet officer they're standard-issue. We feel like their world is MORE wonderful because something clearly wonderful to us is their normal and they expect to still find wonder. Such a thing is not easy for everyone, though, so I can sort of understand why the presence of reliable at-will (combat) magic can tweak one's sensibilities.

Does spellcasting invoke awe or appear mysterious?
In general, no. Spellcasting is far too mechanical in D&D. If you want spells (and spellcasters, for that matter) that actually feel mysterious, otherwordly, you need a game that processes spellcasting (and spellcasters) on a much, much more narrative level than any D&D edition ever has done. Dungeon World does a pretty good job of this, though I admit that my experience is colored by having awesome GMs who know how to turn a player-contributed world into something that feels like fables brought to life and myth being told at the table. It's not impossible for D&D to do this, but you've got to make some very heavy modifications and alterations, to the point of nearly re-building the spells chapter, in addition to the way spells are acquired and employed--which, for 5e, is essentially rewriting half the PHB.

Do rituals invoke awe or appear mysterious?
If handled correctly, absolutely. It requires a deft hand and flexibility, holding the rules up as a thing to follow while also knowing when to allow shortcuts or substitutions. In other words, adjudicating rituals to maintain this perception of awe and mystery is very much like cooking. There are rules--but there also aren't rules. There are very good reasons why you use particular ingredients and cook them in a particular sequence, but there are also common substitutions, and being willing to experiment is necessary for getting the full enjoyment out of what you do. Following recipes, though, has to fundamentally work, otherwise people will just give up before reaching the point where they're comfortable experimenting.

Do magic items invoke awe or appear mysterious?
As with rituals: if handled correctly, absolutely. Allowing items to just be dull stat-sticks with no other redeeming value or function is a waste of everyone's valuable time in my not-so-humble opinion. Whether you're in a game that expects, requires, or ignores the presence of stat-boosting items, the real meat of magic items is in the things that have great potential to influence the campaign but NOT along simple numerical lines. The reference to the ever-refilling chalice is a good example. My DW Paladin's sword, which has grown from merely a minor but important weapon of the Church of Bahamut into one of the most powerful artifacts in the known world, that has slain ancient vampires and raging dragons, that has been directly blessed by Bahamut himself, that has taken into it cores of power from six of the great Towers of Magic (even though there have never been more than five in the known world at any one time)...THAT is an artifact that invokes awe and absolutely appears mysterious. The fact that, when "complete," it will become a Holy Avenger is almost a footnote compared to its narrative significance; with the exception of our very first adventure, it has seen or participated in every major conflict our party has faced, from wrangling with bandits to arm-wrestling the equivalent of wizardly demigods. And yet it is no less narratively important than the mundane, but preternaturally sharp axe the Fighter carries, the axe he stole from the (mind-controlled) Prince's armory a lifetime ago (though truthfully only a couple of years ago, in-universe), or the Cloak of Concealment that would make a normal person merely hard to see, but makes our Rogue practically invisible unless someone specifically knows how to look for the right signs.

In summary: Much of "magic" can be made to invoke awe or an appearance of mystery, but the two most active and dynamic parts of it (at-will magic and spells proper) actively oppose such characterization, because of how they have been constructed. A from-the-ground-up rebuild could make them...at least not opposed to invoking awe and mystery, but achieving that is no mean feat especially for someone used to the system taking care of itself (as at-will magic and spells proper are expected to).

This brings up an interesting point though. While I agree that the blow back part is a major PITA, it does serve a purpose. Magic is dangerous. You can be guaranteed that when the wizard player says, "I'm dropping a fireball", the entire table pays attention. :D There was a chance, sometimes a pretty decent chance, of killing your buddy when dropping this spell.

Now, in application, yeah, it was far, far too fiddly. It's fine if every room is square or rectangular, but, as soon as you had an irregular shaped room, fergeddaboudit. My 15 year old brain wasn't going to calculate the volume of that cavern. Just wasn't going to happen. :D

But, there were a number of spells that worked on similar premises. Haste could kill you. Not likely, but, it could. It did age you a year. Teleport could kill you. Polymorph could kill you. Heck, Raise Dead could kill you even deader. :p

This goes a long way towards my point of magic being sanitised. Magic in 5e rarely has negative side effects, and, because of the battle map (which 5e didn't start, true, but, does use), using magic is a lot more simply a math exercise. How many orcs can you fit into a circle with a radius of 20 feet? :D

And see, there's a really big reason for that. "The people have spoken," as it were. You call it "sanitization," but consider all the stuff spellcasting used to have that it has slowly shed over time: hugely long memorization times (major inconvenience), risking serious harm by casting (random nastiness, and the "random" is equally important), having no control over what and sometimes whether you learn new magic (major inconvenience), complex rules for how particular effects alter due to current situation (too fiddly/complicated/wastes time)...

Just about the only limitation on spellcasting, outside of daily resource expenditure, that hasn't been removed or radically weakened is expensive material components (even 4e included them--for rituals). Concentration has technically stuck around in some form, but I hazard to say that 5e Concentration rules are much more lenient than they were previously.

And none of that even takes into account the plain fact that the relative incompetence of frail cloth-wearing gits in (physical) combat has steadily decreased with time due to other Quality-of-Life tweaks to the rules with time. They're still the bottom of the heap, most definitely, but it's been a long time since a Wizard could be killed by a housecat--and general public opinion seems to be that that was a good move.
 
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Psikerlord#

Explorer
Part of the issue as well, for me anyway, is the sanitisation of magic. I touched on this earlier with the idea of pixelated fireballs. Casting a fireball is now a reason to get out the ruler and protractor and that's not really very magical to me. Watching the caster player spend a few minutes placing that spell just so, so he can maximise its effects pretty much robs any sense of it being magical. At least for me.

It's too... I'm looking for the word... technical I guess would be the best way of describing it. "Oh, oh, if I rotate this square effect 16 degrees, I can catch one more orc" just leaves the whole thing feeling very flat.
I think this is a grid problem, more than a fireball problem. You don't have this issue with totm play (course, you get other issues!)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I think this is a grid problem, more than a fireball problem. You don't have this issue with totm play (course, you get other issues!)
Grids simplify it (say you what you want about square fireballs or wire templates, there was never any question who was caught in them), but a 20' radius sphere is a 20' radius sphere whether you draw it out or try to visualize it or use trigonometry.
;)

The last time I was running TotM and a player cooked off an AE into some ambiguously placed enemies, I cribbed from 13A: hit d3 enemies if you're being careful, more if you cast 'recklessly,' damaging allies engaged with them.
 
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Chris Goodwin

First Post
Well, you could always not let them break out the ruler. I certainly don't allow that. The player has to eyeball the effect just as the caster who's wrapped up in combat must.

Also, the pixellated fireball is really a matter of determining who is in the AoE. It's just a matter of "if the fireball fills at least half the space the target is in, then the target is in the AoE." If it didn't have that rule to help you figure it out, you'd still have to come up with your own rule to apply.

I would assume the character has a better gauge of whether it would affect the target than the player. I'd let the player say something like "I know about how big my fireball is; by eyeballing it it looks like it should be possible for me to hit most of them." And I'd say "Okay, give me an Int check, to place it, DC 15, add your proficiency bonus because you're a wizard." And the player places it, and then maybe we break out the ruler, or maybe not. Or if a target is on the edge, or maybe even one square outside of it, I'd give it to them anyway, because I made them roll for it.




As for the subject of the thread; if casting a spell is no more flavorful than pushing a "fireball" button, then of course it's not going to feel like magic. If the fighters have to draw their swords, move into position, and swing their blades at the orc over there, then why shouldn't the wizard have to pull out his guano and sulfur and "Expecto fireballus!" or whatever.

Flavor, magical or otherwise, comes from play.
 

Rod Staffwand

aka Ermlaspur Flormbator
I'm going to say 'Yes' on this one, especially if I'm playing a wizard. Spells might not be especially wondrous and Tiamat knows we've seen 10,000 magic missiles and rope tricks and dimension doors on our days, but I've always felt like a magic-user when playing one.

Sure the practical result of your fireball might be 10 dead orcs, but the in-game fiction is that you just lobbed an exploding gout of flame at your enemies using nothing more than your mastery of the infinite powers of the cosmos. If I had a fighter lay waste to those same 10 orcs with sword and sinew it'd feel equally awesome, yet definably different. That's enough for me.

Could spells be more exotic or come with unpredictable effects? Sure. No question.

Would a Design-Your-Spell system allow for vastly more customization and a myriad of outlandish spells? Absolutely:
1. Vanzur's Kittenball: Conjures an exploding ball of kittens that inflicts 5d7 points of adorable damage.
2. Deflect Fingers: No one can lay a finger on you.
3. Flaming Spoon of Doom: Pretty much what you'd expect. Also keeps your porridge warm.
4. Mount Mount: A cantrip for unathletic wizards in a horse-centric culture.

Is D&D magic perfect? Nope. Never has been. Vancian magic was esoteric and flavorful, but that flavor was also limiting to those who didn't want it. Spell levels have always been a mess. 3X was completely unbalanced. 4E didn't go far enough with utility magic and rituals, leaving things a bit bland.

D&D 5E is a middle-of-the-road cross-section with some of the strengths and weaknesses of each edition. Due to this it's probably the most adaptable of any edition. You can dress it up in mystery by crafting unique spells and reinforcing the wonder of it all OR you can stress it's utility and tactical-tool qualities. It's still not perfect and I hate a lot of it, but it's probably the best yet (Yes I am a harsh critic, thank you for asking!).
 

At each table, the level of detail/personalition that goes into the description of spell effects will vary.

Some will, much like Matt Mercer on Critical Role, describe how "a crackling build up of purplish arcane energy wraps around your arms and then with a shoving motion you fling it across the chamber towards the monster...roll to hit".

Others may simply go down the route of "you cast Eldritch Blast...what'd you roll?".

A good example is the visualisation of Magic Missile. In BECMI, Bargle's version was a glowing arrow. On Acquisitions Inc, it's balls of light that spell out "Jim" in their vapour trail. It could just as easily be tiny orange shuriken or glowing wraithlike ravens. This spell lends itself to players adding their own colour, because it's a generic spell name: Magic Missile could be anything. And some groups may just wish to announce the spell and roll damage without thinking about the aesthetics at all.

So, while the possibility of personalisation is there, because the rules don't really give these kinds of examples, focussing instead on relatively "this is what it is" descriptions instead, there is no need to think about it.

Example: Fireball is a mote of energy that is sent to a space and then explodes. But it could be a tiny dancing imp that appears in that space before radiating flame and then disappearing; or a circle of arcane letters appears on the ground/in the air the size of the blast radius before lines radiate from each letter to its opposite side and the space is filled with flame, or an image of the caster's laughing face made of green fire.

Eldritch Blast could be seen as dark shadowy forms raking the victim, or a gout of hellfire, or a crackling spectral hound running into the body of the victim, or a black octopoid limb fashioned from ink-in-water visuals striking the victim.

I think if each spell had more of this "make up your own cool visualisation" text baked into its description - and the intro section flagged that each caster draws upon the magic of the weave in their own way and much like a Patronus charm, each spellcaster's manifestation of magic is unique - perhaps with some more 'vanilla' naming conventions to force the issue ('magic missile' lends itself to interpretation more than 'melf's minute meteors'), then magic might feel more magical.

If each spellcaster (had to have?) invested in what THEIR spell looks like, it would definitely feel more unique and more mysterious - Wizard Prang casting Fire Bolt sends an elongated Z shaped javelin of pure fire. But what's this? The evil Wizard Wheeze casts a sickly yellow glowing skull of energy, wtf is that??? (It's also Fire Bolt, but Prang doesn't necessarily know that - and even if he did because of standard Verbal components ("Crucio!"), each Wizard could admire their opponents Magecraft).
 

Azurewraith

Explorer
At each table, the level of detail/personalition that goes into the description of spell effects will vary.

Some will, much like Matt Mercer on Critical Role, describe how "a crackling build up of purplish arcane energy wraps around your arms and then with a shoving motion you fling it across the chamber towards the monster...roll to hit".

Others may simply go down the route of "you cast Eldritch Blast...what'd you roll?".

A good example is the visualisation of Magic Missile. In BECMI, Bargle's version was a glowing arrow. On Acquisitions Inc, it's balls of light that spell out "Jim" in their vapour trail. It could just as easily be tiny orange shuriken or glowing wraithlike ravens. This spell lends itself to players adding their own colour, because it's a generic spell name: Magic Missile could be anything. And some groups may just wish to announce the spell and roll damage without thinking about the aesthetics at all.

So, while the possibility of personalisation is there, because the rules don't really give these kinds of examples, focussing instead on relatively "this is what it is" descriptions instead, there is no need to think about it.

Example: Fireball is a mote of energy that is sent to a space and then explodes. But it could be a tiny dancing imp that appears in that space before radiating flame and then disappearing; or a circle of arcane letters appears on the ground/in the air the size of the blast radius before lines radiate from each letter to its opposite side and the space is filled with flame, or an image of the caster's laughing face made of green fire.

Eldritch Blast could be seen as dark shadowy forms raking the victim, or a gout of hellfire, or a crackling spectral hound running into the body of the victim, or a black octopoid limb fashioned from ink-in-water visuals striking the victim.

I think if each spell had more of this "make up your own cool visualisation" text baked into its description - and the intro section flagged that each caster draws upon the magic of the weave in their own way and much like a Patronus charm, each spellcaster's manifestation of magic is unique - perhaps with some more 'vanilla' naming conventions to force the issue ('magic missile' lends itself to interpretation more than 'melf's minute meteors'), then magic might feel more magical.

If each spellcaster (had to have?) invested in what THEIR spell looks like, it would definitely feel more unique and more mysterious - Wizard Prang casting Fire Bolt sends an elongated Z shaped javelin of pure fire. But what's this? The evil Wizard Wheeze casts a sickly yellow glowing skull of energy, wtf is that??? (It's also Fire Bolt, but Prang doesn't necessarily know that - and even if he did because of standard Verbal components ("Crucio!"), each Wizard could admire their opponents Magecraft).
This would add some uniqueness to casting and a certain cool factor plus would make dispelling magic more interesting as you would wouldn't know exact what the spell was.
 

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