D&D Math questions

[JDowling]

I believe this is the proper forum, please move if incorrect.

Question 1: is any consistant way that ECLs are figuered because there are some ECLs that seem a bit off to me looking through the 3.5 MM (Hill Giant ECL +4). Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but a 1st level Fighter Hill Giant should be about equivalent power to a 5th level human one based on that, right? assmueing the same base scores just with bonus stats alone the Hill Giant is getting +7 to attack and damage (then toss in fighter level and you have an attack bonus of +8, compaired to 5th level human fighter BAB +5), 12d8+1d10+(4/level) (4 per level better then human, +8 con) to 5d10, and a number of other advantages. What am I missing here? It would seem that a 1st level Hill Giant Fighter would be about on par with an 8th level human fighter (so about ECL +7, yes?). So I guess I'm wondering if I'm looking at this the wrong way.

Question 2: I saw FrankTrollman post in another thread about multiclass characters, something like a 10th level character with 8 levels fighter and 2 levels of mage is 87% of a 10th level character (power wise, or whatever). I was wondering how that math was figuered?

 

[The Souljourner]

You're looking at the Level Adjustment, and Level Adjustment is *not* the same as ECL. To get the ECL, you have to take the monster's number of hitdice and add it to its Level Adjustment, and that's your final ECL.

So the hill giant has 12 hitdice and a +4 level adjustment, so his ECL is actually +16. So a first level Fighter Hill Giant would actually be ECL 17.

However, that's not to say that a lot of the ECLs aren't off, in my opinion, but that's another thread.

-The Souljourner

 

[JDowling]

ahhhh, well that answers one question, thanks much now if anyone can make out what the other one was about heh

 

[Deset Gled]

Question 2: I saw FrankTrollman post in another thread about multiclass characters, something like a 10th level character with 8 levels fighter and 2 levels of mage is 87% of a 10th level character (power wise, or whatever). I was wondering how that math was figuered?

I have no idea how someone could claim to numerically calculate a character's power. There is no mathematical way equate utility effectiveness and combat effectiveness, or defensive effectiveness, or roleplaying effectiveness, etc, etc. The belief that multiclassing is bad for casters, however, is fairly common.

 

[dcollins]

Question 2: I saw FrankTrollman post in another thread about multiclass characters, something like a 10th level character with 8 levels fighter and 2 levels of mage is 87% of a 10th level character (power wise, or whatever). I was wondering how that math was figuered?

Trollishly.

 

[JDowling]

I think it had something to do with the challenge level of an encounter, like a character is equivalent to 2 characters of 2 levels lower, or something (a 10th level wizard would be the same CR as 2 8th level wizards).

I think it was an extrapolation of that idea, but I didn't necessarily follow it entirely, i'll try to dig up the quote if i can remember what thread it's in.

EDIT: here's the quote:

Just by taking wizarding to the point of casting 1st level spells you are behind on your Warrior by at least one level. Wizard gives you no BAB, and no Warrior abilities - putting you at least an entire level behind. Remember that being 2 levels behind you are half a character, and so on.

So the minimum entry is:

6th level character with 5 levels of Warrior and 1 level of Wizard. You are a Warrior and a Wizard. You are:

1 level behind as a Warrior, this makes you 71% of a character of your level.
but you are also
5 levels behind as a Wizard - which means that you are simultaneously 18% of a character of your level.

Altogether that's about 89% of a character of your level - weak, but playable. The problem is that if you ever fall any farther behind in Wizardry or Fighting you are less than 89% of a character of your level. And that's too much.

That's how the game balance math actually works out. Being a Fighter Wizard is unbalanced if you are more than a certain number of total levels behind in magic and fighting vs. a single classed character. Level proportion doesn't make any difference at all.

So any time you don't get a spellcaster level, that level had better be worth two levels of Barbarian (including BAB and Hit Dice) - or the character is falling farther behind.

And since they are already sub par - that's inexcusable.

from this thread (just so you can see context if necessary) about a redone arcane archer in House Rules section: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?t=67172

 

[dcollins]

JD, life is too short for bad math.

 

[CRGreathouse]

By that logic, a wizard1/warrior1 is more powerful than a fourth level warrior -- 42% more powerful, actually, and even more if you count the BAB from the wizard.

This holds for any multiclassed character combination. Wow.

 

[FrankTrollman]

By that logic, a wizard1/warrior1 is more powerful than a fourth level warrior -- 42% more powerful, actually, and even more if you count the BAB from the wizard.

This holds for any multiclassed character combination. Wow.

Um... what?

No. By that logic - which is in fact the encounter creation logic from the DMG - a Wizard 1/ Warrior 1 is the equivalent of half a Warrior 4.

The concept is that every +2 levels is the equal of x2 power (except for the jump between 1st and 2nd, which is only +1 level but is also a doubling of power). Thus, if someone is one level up they are 41% more powerful (as it is the square root of two times as large). However, if they have a non-related ability (say, a level of Wizard on a Hill Giant or Ranger) - their additional level starts in at the beginning.

Thus, since a 1st level character is half the power of a 2nd level character. And a 2nd level character is half the power of a fourth level character - then a character who is 1st level is 25% the power of a 4th level character. A character with 2 1st levels is half the power of a 4th level character. A character with one specialty at 2nd level is also half the power of a 4th level.

However, a character who is 3rd level in one specialty is 71% the power of a 4th level character - while a character who is 2nd level in one specialty and 1st level in another is 75% the power of a 4th level character. That's how the math works out.

And it is somewhat borne out in practice. At early levels, multiclassed characters are boss.

The part where it sucks is at high levels. A character who is 15th level is 71% of the power of a 16th level character. A character who is 14th level in one specialty and 1st level in another is only 50.4% of the power of a 16th level character.

And yes. That's how the encounter math works out. And that's why Hill Giants aren't supposed to even pay CR for the first couple of levels of Wizard - it simply doesn't meaningfully affect their abilities.

Power within a specialty is exponential, according to the design principles of D&D. Certainly within the Wizard class I think we can agree that is true. The farther you go in an exponential function - the faster it grows. Adding two Exponential Functions together is going to get you wildly different values compared to simply advancing in a single exponential function. And if you go far enough in the single function - adding two functions together is going to be significantly smaller.

-Frank

 

[CRGreathouse]

Um... what?

No. By that logic - which is in fact the encounter creation logic from the DMG - a Wizard 1/ Warrior 1 is the equivalent of half a Warrior 4.

Sorry, typo -- I meant War2, not War4. A multiclassed wizard/warrior is weaker than a single-classed wizard or warrior, but your system would make it more powerful.

The concept is that every +2 levels is the equal of x2 power (except for the jump between 1st and 2nd, which is only +1 level but is also a doubling of power). Thus, if someone is one level up they are 41% more powerful (as it is the square root of two times as large). However, if they have a non-related ability (say, a level of Wizard on a Hill Giant or Ranger) - their additional level starts in at the beginning.

That would work, except for BAB from level 2 in nonmelee classes, hit points, and wealth.