Imaro
Legend
Just for the monsters.
D&D (2024) D&D Monster Manual (2025)
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
Just for the monsters.
Imaro
Legend
The nature of the internet...as I said, I was sure someone could / would disagree
Uhm... they gave both and I think if you're giving an example of a setting to illustrate how you create one... you should show both (especially since starting at a high or low level is equally valid) a high level world/continent overview and a starting town/city... which the 2024 DMG does.
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
I mean...they do that, in the Greyhawk section?as I said, I was sure someone could / would disagree
I do not consider describing a whole continent at a high level essential at all. If you want any setting information (rather than info on how to create one) in the DMG, then give me a starting town and region with a little adventure and hooks for others
This is especially true for a setting agnostic TTRPG. If you have one ‘baked in’ that is a different scenario
mamba
Legend
very true
in world building? Not sure I subscribe to that theory either, or at least at that point I consider the level of detail provided to already be ‘too low for high level’
Have a continent outline, have some general idea of what countries are where and what their ‘main topics’ are, have a pantheon, done. At that point I would personally build up rather than further down by detailing out every country, unless most of your continent is part of your planned story from the start
mamba
Legend
they do more than that in some ways, less in others. I would shift the emphasis
Either way, I’d rather they included solid monster creation rules than either bastions or GH, to bring it back to where this started
Imaro
Legend
You haven't read the Greyhawk section...have you? You are literally describing it in each of your posts stating what you would want.very true
in world building? Not sure I subscribe to that theory either, or at least at that point I consider the level of detail provided to already be ‘too low for high level’
Have a continent outline, have some general idea of what countries are where and what their ‘main topics’ are, have a pantheon, done. At that point I would personally build up rather than further down by detailing out every country, unless most of your continent is part of your planned story from the start
mamba
Legend
I have skimmed it, and no, that is not what I am describing, their adventure outlines are much more flimsy than what I was thinking of
You can argue that the Flanaess content is what I am describing, but then I’d say that it is describing too big a region / has too many countries at the right level of detail.
I do not need Central, Eastern, Western, Northern and Keoland for this, we have that because it is GH, not an example setting
And the Free City of Greyhawk is also not what I consider the starting town
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Remathilis
Legend
So for schnitz and giggles (schnitzels?) I went back with fresh eyes and reviewed the 2014 creation rules.
Holy #$&@ are they convoluted to the uninitiated!
There are two types of rules: the chart and the build from scratch. Well, that's not completely true. The chart is used in the latter, but it can be used alone if all you care about is attack and defense numbers. The chart in isolation is fine (I have never used it in game, if I need just a random set of fight numbers I'll grab a brute MM monster and reskin) but I'm here to look at the more detailed "how to build a stat block" section.
Oh boy.
First, it's 20 steps. Twenty! Now some are easier than others (picking an alignment is barely a step). But it's still a daunting list at first blush. The first few steps are straight forward, but our first snag hits at step six: choose a CR. You refer back to the table for quick stats and keep that number penciled in. That will be your target numbers for every other step.
Now you get to the AC section. You can set AC by the chart or calculate it normally (AC 10 + Dex + armor + misc) though the latter might end up with a lower/higher number on the chart. The same is done with HP, but now you have to keep in mind the size and number of their HD, Con mod and other misc. Did those numbers align with the chart? Good, but don't write them in yet because they can still change.
Repeat the process for offense, setting attack mods and save DCa based on PB and ability scores. Again, don't settle on anything because specific attacks can raise these. To calculate damage, find the average damage of their first three rounds of combat, using their most optimal attack pattern. If they're a spellcaster, pick their three best spells and use their average damage. If they have AOE attacks, you have to take into account the number of targets they will probably hit with it. Once you have those numbers, check the chart? Still hitting the benchmarks? Good, not done yet.
You see, some special attacks and defenses raise your AC, HP, and damage per round. In particular, damage resistances multiply your HP total. Certain features (a non-exhaustive chart is provided) raise your numbers as well. It's possible that enough of these numbers might raise a stat into the next bracket of CR (more on that later).
Note that while certain things raise CR, others don't. In particular, condition riders to attacks and resistances don't, so a creature who can apply charmed, poisoned, fear and paralyzed in one hit has the same CR as one who doesn't. Dittos to ones immune to the above conditions.
Now, you calculate a defensive CR (based on effective AC and HP, including all adjustments) and an offensive CR (attacks, damage and save DCs) . There is a chance that these will be equal and match your target CR, but just as likely it won't. If they are uneven, average them. That's your final CR.
But wait! CR determines your proficiency bonus, which was used to calculate the CR. And if your CR changed enough from target, it's possible the CR bonus changed, which changes all your numbers and forces you to recalculate them with the new PB to see if they still match the intended CR!
Aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!
And if your numbers don't align with what you wanted, no problem. Just add HD (and recalculate the defensive CR) or up damage (and recalculate the offensive CR) until you meet the desired CR.
Then add your finishing touches like senses and skills and languages!
Everyone followed that?
You can see why that system is unintuitive. You never settle on any number until you have your final calculation, and only then can you set numbers in stone. Everything is in flux until that point. Imagine if PC's level was determined by a bunch of factors (like defenses and damage per round) and you had to recalculate everything if a number changed. It would be madness.
We liked these rules because most of us are old hat DMs who probably have designed plenty of rules for the game (professionally or otherwise) but to someone who isn't hardcore into the game math or nuts and bolts, that's a lot of stuff that is heavy on theory and light on actual rules. And it's really hard to do without spreadsheets or special calculators monitoring your changes in real time.
I am not a game designer by choice. I don't know how you make it simpler. 3e did it by makings monsters build like PCs. 4e did it by disassociating the final numbers from how they are calculated (ie AC is set by level, not armor or Dex). 5e tries to split the difference and makes monster creation complicated beyond what most DMs can or will use.
Holy #$&@ are they convoluted to the uninitiated!
There are two types of rules: the chart and the build from scratch. Well, that's not completely true. The chart is used in the latter, but it can be used alone if all you care about is attack and defense numbers. The chart in isolation is fine (I have never used it in game, if I need just a random set of fight numbers I'll grab a brute MM monster and reskin) but I'm here to look at the more detailed "how to build a stat block" section.
Oh boy.
First, it's 20 steps. Twenty! Now some are easier than others (picking an alignment is barely a step). But it's still a daunting list at first blush. The first few steps are straight forward, but our first snag hits at step six: choose a CR. You refer back to the table for quick stats and keep that number penciled in. That will be your target numbers for every other step.
Now you get to the AC section. You can set AC by the chart or calculate it normally (AC 10 + Dex + armor + misc) though the latter might end up with a lower/higher number on the chart. The same is done with HP, but now you have to keep in mind the size and number of their HD, Con mod and other misc. Did those numbers align with the chart? Good, but don't write them in yet because they can still change.
Repeat the process for offense, setting attack mods and save DCa based on PB and ability scores. Again, don't settle on anything because specific attacks can raise these. To calculate damage, find the average damage of their first three rounds of combat, using their most optimal attack pattern. If they're a spellcaster, pick their three best spells and use their average damage. If they have AOE attacks, you have to take into account the number of targets they will probably hit with it. Once you have those numbers, check the chart? Still hitting the benchmarks? Good, not done yet.
You see, some special attacks and defenses raise your AC, HP, and damage per round. In particular, damage resistances multiply your HP total. Certain features (a non-exhaustive chart is provided) raise your numbers as well. It's possible that enough of these numbers might raise a stat into the next bracket of CR (more on that later).
Note that while certain things raise CR, others don't. In particular, condition riders to attacks and resistances don't, so a creature who can apply charmed, poisoned, fear and paralyzed in one hit has the same CR as one who doesn't. Dittos to ones immune to the above conditions.
Now, you calculate a defensive CR (based on effective AC and HP, including all adjustments) and an offensive CR (attacks, damage and save DCs) . There is a chance that these will be equal and match your target CR, but just as likely it won't. If they are uneven, average them. That's your final CR.
But wait! CR determines your proficiency bonus, which was used to calculate the CR. And if your CR changed enough from target, it's possible the CR bonus changed, which changes all your numbers and forces you to recalculate them with the new PB to see if they still match the intended CR!
Aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!
And if your numbers don't align with what you wanted, no problem. Just add HD (and recalculate the defensive CR) or up damage (and recalculate the offensive CR) until you meet the desired CR.
Then add your finishing touches like senses and skills and languages!
Everyone followed that?
You can see why that system is unintuitive. You never settle on any number until you have your final calculation, and only then can you set numbers in stone. Everything is in flux until that point. Imagine if PC's level was determined by a bunch of factors (like defenses and damage per round) and you had to recalculate everything if a number changed. It would be madness.
We liked these rules because most of us are old hat DMs who probably have designed plenty of rules for the game (professionally or otherwise) but to someone who isn't hardcore into the game math or nuts and bolts, that's a lot of stuff that is heavy on theory and light on actual rules. And it's really hard to do without spreadsheets or special calculators monitoring your changes in real time.
I am not a game designer by choice. I don't know how you make it simpler. 3e did it by makings monsters build like PCs. 4e did it by disassociating the final numbers from how they are calculated (ie AC is set by level, not armor or Dex). 5e tries to split the difference and makes monster creation complicated beyond what most DMs can or will use.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Then just think about how stupid our hands look to Rakshasas...
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mamba
Legend
well, yeah, if you want to start with a CR and never change it, you will have to stick to the table. That is the nature of the beast.
Could this be improved? Probably... My first idea would be to have features 'cost' things from that table. Add a resistance? Lower the HP by 10% and AC by 1, or something like that, and so forth for other features
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