D&D 5E D&D Next Q&A: 03/14/2014

[Hussar]

Assuming that you mean the plane, what makes water bodies in the Abyss harder to sail than on the prime?

Again we're seeing some pretty big playstyle issues. I suggest you hit up the Savage Tide Adventure Path if you think sailing in the abyss is the same as sailing on the Prime.

But sure if you assume that all challenges will be the same difficulty regardless of context then you would be right [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION].

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

That's how I feel too... and the reason why I am not completely sure bounded accuracy (or d20) works well with skills.

I think it works well even with skills. You just need to keep the difficulty numbers in a smaller range as well. DC 5 for easy, DC 10 for medium, DC 15 for hard, DC 20 for extremely hard and DC 25 for "nearly impossible".

At higher levels PCs are much more likely to be able to make Hard DCs so you can use them more often. Some PCs will have +11 to their skill checks and will succeed 80% of the time. The poor ones will have +0 and still can succeed 30% of the time. They REALLY don't want to have to make that check but they have a chance of success if they try.

I think skills are the sort of things that sometimes you want to have an easy check at level 20 or you might want an extremely hard check at level 1. Especially when people come up with some crazy plan to do something with their skills that is extremely unlikely.

 

[Derren]

I suggest you hit up the Savage Tide Adventure Path if you think sailing in the abyss is the same as sailing on the Prime.

But sure if you assume that all challenges will be the same difficulty regardless of context then you would be right [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION].

I don't have it so I can't look into it.
If there are actual reasons why sailing in the Abyss is harder than on the prime (constant whirpools, unpredictable wind, etc.) then a higher DC is justified (the same DC you would get on the prime if the actual conditions are the same).
But I do not see "Its the Abyss" alone as a reason for higher DCs. That is just another way of saying "The DC is higher because you are level 20".

 

[Savage Wombat]

I don't have it so I can't look into it.
If there are actual reasons why sailing in the Abyss is harder than on the prime (constant whirpools, unpredictable wind, etc.) then a higher DC is justified (the same DC you would get on the prime if the actual conditions are the same).
But I do not see "Its the Abyss" alone as a reason for higher DCs. That is just another way of saying "The DC is higher because you are level 20".

That's what he's saying. The oceans of the Abyss are more frighteningly dangerous than any terrestrial waterway.

4th ed didn't mean to suggest that checks should be harder just because you're higher level either - they meant that the obstacles the DM places before a 20th level character should be more fantastic.

 

[Derren]

The oceans of the Abyss are more frighteningly dangerous than any terrestrial waterway.

Again, that is just another way of saying "Its the Abyss" and should not influence how hard a sailing check is.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Again, that is just another way of saying "Its the Abyss" and should not influence how hard a sailing check is.

You yourself mentioned things like whirlpools and constant unpredictable wind. Nobody is saying "on this plane the DC is 20". They're saying "the worst sailing conditions ever encountered in the Prime are just Tuesday in the Abyss".

 

[Derren]

They're saying "the worst sailing conditions ever encountered in the Prime are just Tuesday in the Abyss".

No, nobody said that. They just said "Its the Abyss" as if that would explain the higher DCs. And that is a common pitfall, especially in 4E where the DCs indeed scaled with the level and where a location is de facto leveled (both with monsters and skill encounters).
For the skill system I am arguing for to work, the location or level must not affect the DCs. You can have calm water in the Abyss with level 20 PCs and you can have storms on the prime with lvl 5 PCs. And unlike 4E, the DC would be higher in the latter example.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Sorry, but I looked back through the thread and I still don't see where anyone's disagreeing with you. Nobody's saying a still pond is a harder DC because it's the Abyss. Mt. Everest isn't a DC 25 survival check because it's a famous mountain and only 10th+ characters should be there - it's a DC 25 survival check because it's a famously high and dangerous mountain.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, nobody said that. They just said "Its the Abyss" as if that would explain the higher DCs. And that is a common pitfall, especially in 4E where the DCs indeed scaled with the level and where a location is de facto leveled (both with monsters and skill encounters).
For the skill system I am arguing for to work, the location or level must not affect the DCs. You can have calm water in the Abyss with level 20 PCs and you can have storms on the prime with lvl 5 PCs. And unlike 4E, the DC would be higher in the latter example.

I think you're getting the order of operations a bit backwards here with regards to 4e.

The suggestion is that if you have level 5 PC's, and a storm is DC (some high number), then that is not an appropriate challenge for their level. If you have level 20 PC's, and sailing over a calm see is DC (some low number), that is also an inappropriate challenge for their level. So the idea runs that PC's should basically face challenges that are appropriate for their level, which means that low DC challenges are things that low-level characters face and high DC challenges are things that high-level characters face.

In practice, it just means the DM doesn't throw in a demilich at a party of beet farmers, and doesn't throw dire rats at a party of demigods.

It's still not great for everyone, but it's not some sort of magic "that ocean you sailed on has magically changed DC's in the course of the last 10 levels," it's more that the ocean you sailed across with a challenge at level 5 shouldn't also be a challenge at level 15 -- ramp it up!

 

[Rhenny]

I think it works well even with skills. You just need to keep the difficulty numbers in a smaller range as well. DC 5 for easy, DC 10 for medium, DC 15 for hard, DC 20 for extremely hard and DC 25 for "nearly impossible".

At higher levels PCs are much more likely to be able to make Hard DCs so you can use them more often. Some PCs will have +11 to their skill checks and will succeed 80% of the time. The poor ones will have +0 and still can succeed 30% of the time. They REALLY don't want to have to make that check but they have a chance of success if they try.

I think skills are the sort of things that sometimes you want to have an easy check at level 20 or you might want an extremely hard check at level 1. Especially when people come up with some crazy plan to do something with their skills that is extremely unlikely.

This is how I read it too. Most checks in an adventure should be DC 10, say 80% of the checks. Maybe 15% of the checks should be DC 15 and 5% should be DC 20. DC 25 should be very rare.

With this spread, I've found that players attempt more actions and the game flows more fluidly, and the experts shine 20% of the time.

For improvised actions the descriptions and DCs you've set seem to work better too.