D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

[TwoSix]

But if so, then normalization is present, and it constitutes propaganda.

Do we agree on that?

Sure, I agree with you that normalization is propaganda. I just don't disagree it's a bad thing. It's a bad thing if it's being done in promotion of something bad.

And yes, I recognize that identifying something as "good" or "bad" is inherently personal, and I'm OK with that. You can't establish fundamental moral axioms, especially around concepts like "tolerance", without some conflict. There's no way to discuss to a compromise about some issues.

 

[tombowings]

Ha ha ha! No.

People change their beliefs (for better or worse) through regular contact with people who hold practice different norms. Whether to accept gays isn't a decision you can even make rationally, since there's no rational yardstick to use. (People have tried to use utilitarianism for that or applied things like the Golden Rule, but these methods fall apart if you follow them far enough) These sorts of changes happen because of empathy and humanization. I formally contend that Will & Grace did more for gay marriage than any formal debate on the topic.

Which is a shame and demonstrates how far we still have to come as a species. I will not, however, advocate for the use of the wrong tools for the right reasons.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sure, I agree with you that normalization is propaganda. I just don't disagree it's a bad thing. It's a bad thing if it's being done in promotion of something bad.

That's a valid viewpoint.

And yes, I recognize that identifying something as "good" or "bad" is inherently personal, and I'm OK with that. You can't establish fundamental moral axioms, especially around concepts like "tolerance", without some conflict. There's no way to discuss to a compromise about some issues.

Sure, sounds reasonable.

 

[tombowings]

But that's been shown to not work in general. Confirmation bias tends to rule when confronted with conflicting data. In fact, it seems to actually increase you devotion to your own position.

What tends to work better - pervasive presentation. There's been some interesting conjecture that the condition of women across parts of India has been improving through access to more western-produced television that depict women's status with more equality as normal.

Which I would argue is a great example of using the wrong tools for the right reasons, though is remains something I am not in favor of and cannot support.

 

[Morrus]

Which I would argue is a great example of using the wrong tools for the right reasons, though is remains something I am not in favor of and cannot support.

I don’t like the way you are using EN World for your propaganda. Wrong tool. Please use a different one.

How does that feel?

 

[Nagol]

Sure, I agree with you that normalization is propaganda. I just don't disagree it's a bad thing. It's a bad thing if it's being done in promotion of something bad.

And yes, I recognize that identifying something as "good" or "bad" is inherently personal, and I'm OK with that. You can't establish fundamental moral axioms, especially around concepts like "tolerance", without some conflict. There's no way to discuss to a compromise about some issues.

Depends how it is done. I would consider normalisation to be propaganda if and only if the aspect being introduced is only presented in one light. If all characters with that aspect are heroic, villainous, competent, incompetent, admirable, or ridiculous then it's propaganda. If the aspect is applied across the gamut in about the same ratio it appears in studied populations then it is simply normalization.

 

[tombowings]

Did this thread really just include a comparison between homosexuals and Nazis as if they were perfectly normal ideologies that are equally logical to either support or be against? This is most ridiculous false equivalence I've seen on this board, and that's really saying something.

And did [MENTION=56324]tombowings[/MENTION] really assert that he has no problems with homosexuals or Nazis, again amplifying this asinine and ludicrous false equivalence?

One of these groups wants to be treated with respect and decency. The other of these groups WANTS TO KILL THE OTHER GROUP AND MANY OTHERS and I should be having to make this point clear. So let me do so in larger, bolder words:

NOT ALL IDEOLOGIES ARE EQUAL, AND IDEOLOGIES THAT PROMOTE DECENCY, RESPECT AND A SHARED HUMANITY WILL ALWAYS BE MORAL AND RIGHT, AND THOSE ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST THE RIGHT TO EXIST OR BE SEEN AS PART OF A SHARED HUMANITY WILL ALWAYS BE IMMORAL AND WRONG

I have no problem with either within the context of roleplay. It is a game of make believe with no effect on the real world. Eventually the Nazis will shout loud enough that everyone will learn their mouths and minds are full of garbage and eventually the Christians will realize there's nothing wrong with gay people. Eventually good ideas win out over poor ideas. That's the way of the world. It's called the battle of ideas.

All I'm saying is that the a children's game is not the right place for that battle to play out.

 

[Lord Twig]

Everyone who disagrees with his ideology but still loves D&D and wants to support the game (just not the ideology Crawford presents). How would you like it if D&D came out and said, "we're no longer going to include images of blacks in our gamebooks."

You'd be torn. On the one hand, you love the game (as an apolitical object of fun and enjoyment) and would want to support the game. On the other hand, you hate the message. You have the option, now, of supporting both or neither. It's a simple choice to decide which one you'd support (it would be for me, too), but the thought experiment shows how media is not the correct, ethical tool to use when promoting an agenda.

Yeah, no. You have this backwards. What if D&D came out and said, "we're no longer going to exclude images of blacks in our gamebooks."

Now how torn do you feel?

 

[tombowings]

I don’t like the way you are using EN World for your propaganda. Wrong tool. Please use a different one.

How does that feel?

Seeing as us both have a reasonable change to present both our views in the same light and with the same resources, I'd say it's not a bad place to discuss ideology with regards to roleplaying games.

 

[Morrus]

D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

I have no problem with either within the context of roleplay. It is a game of make believe with no effect on the real world. Eventually the Nazis will shout loud enough that everyone will learn their mouths and minds are full of garbage and eventually the Christians will realize there's nothing wrong with gay people. Eventually good ideas win out over poor ideas. That's the way of the world. It's called the battle of ideas.

All I'm saying is that the a children's game is not the right place for that battle to play out.

EN World is not the right place for your propaganda. Please choose a more suitable venue.