D&D (2024) D&D species article

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Eh, quality of design and financial success aren't super closely correlated, IMXP. Players don't value pristine design all that much. Folks still play Monopoly. A game can be real janky and still get a lot of popularity.

And, FWIW, I still don't like most of what's going on with the species, and I think there's some pretty iffy stuff here. Most of what I'm seeing reads like a team that lost track of the psychology and the fantasy and prioritized making this choice of species to be a low-impact choice, when that's not really how the choice of species lines up in the minds of players. In the story I'm telling, a dwarf fighter is as much dwarf as they are fighter. And being a mountain dwarf is distinct from being a hill dwarf. The dwarfishness - and the variety of dwarfishness - is important. In the game design of D&D, though, the dwarf fighter is a fighter like every other fighter, with a few mostly aesthetic differences. Class is by far the most significant load-bearing weight. 5e just goes further in the direction that we've been leaning into for several editions, now: you being a dwarf isn't much of an impact, it's you being a FIGHTER that is important.

I don't think that's bad design, but I think it's worth questioning that direction, because it's not lining up with how I think a lot of people approach D&D, and that seems like a mismatch to me. Might be worth exploring some products outside WotC that make species a more significant character choice, I'd be interested in seeing some innovation there.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think there's some nuance here that you're missing. 4e shoved nearly everything into a spells (er, POWERS) category. Much more than 5e does!
Well, yes, but that's because "power" literally meant "anything that can be done." To call something a "power" is simply to make a formalized action of it. "Powers" are actually a generic framework, which 5e spellcasting emphatically is not and never was.

There is a significant difference between "force every mechanic to be saddled with the ultra-specific faults and foibles and quirks of spellcasting" and "create a generic framework which can actually describe any action or effect." Had 5e actually done this--actually turned "spell" into a truly open, generic framework with zero implied characteristics--then you wouldn't be hearing a peep out of me, unless they had executed that goal poorly, of course.

There's a case for spell-ifying mechanics that needs to be evaluated more on a case by case basis than on a blanket condemnation of turning things into spells. If you're close to being a spell already, maybe we gain a lot of efficiency and understanding by making you into a spell.
If that were actually their policy, then yes, I would completely agree. But that moderate policy--"evaluate mechanics to see if it would be helpful to make them spells"--absolutely must have a complementary policy. Evaluate spells to see if it would be helpful to make them NOT spells. This is something 5e has never done, and I don't expect it to ever do. They will continue the crusade of spell-ifying nearly everything supernatural that PCs do.

The "blanket condemnation" you refer to is only because we've suffered under a yoke of turning things from class features into spells for, quite literally, over a decade now. If I speak strongly, it is only because the flawed behavior has been stronger still. Unfortunately, at this point, the "spells for EVERYONE" policy has gone on so long, and been doubled down upon in 5.5e, that there's really nothing that can be done about it. The ills have been baked so deeply into the game, you'd need to do a full rewrite to flush them out. Again, this does not mean spells can't replace class features EVER. It just means that, like with Ad/Dis, they've been incredibly profligate with it, taking it to numerous places it never should have been.

I don't think the quantity of spells is much of a damning thing, any more than 4e's profound mass of powers was much of a damning thing. I do like that 5e tends to not make a unique spell or ability for EVERYTHING, which enables some degree of knowledge to cross between game functions. If I have access to fireball as a sorcerer or as a wizard or from a necklace of fireballs, I don't need to learn a new slightly different version of fireball for each. But spell-ifying things that are not spells eats away at that.
I mean, your last eleven words essentially concede the point as far as I'm concerned. But to address the rest: again, a 4e "power" literally means "a thing you can do." Basic attacks are powers. Item with uses are powers. Skills have powers associated with them--some you just have, others you opt into. "Power" is literally just a word for "an action or effect that can happen." It has zero further hangups or characteristics to it. "Spell" could hardly be less like that if it tried. It has numerous specific hangups and "quirks" (IMO, mostly foibles and flaws, but hey, I'm not the one who set D&D on this course so many years ago). I certainly grant that keeping things more consistent has its uses--but that has essentially nothing to do with spell-ifying class features...and feats...and racial abilities...and...and...and...

I am deeply skeptical of this kind of critique of 5e as a hot mess or as bad design, a critique of technique. Design has a goal and a reason, and understanding it in context is so much more valuable than dismissing it as bad. Even most of the deep jank of some 1e and 2e choices have a way they make sense, a way to appreciate what people were thinking at the time, and a way to realize that "improvements" can also leave behind some valuable design elements. Dismissing the work of dozens of very good and very thoughtful professional game designers working in one of the most demanding environments possible in this little industry on the TTRPG played by the most people in the world as "bad design" feels exceptionally shallow and not a little elitist. There absolutely can be bad design, even in 5e, but most of the time the reality is more complex than this simple dismissive label.
I'm aware of the need for Chesterton's Fence. I have put it into practice, and I find the reasons behind the design deeply, deeply wanting.

Even still: You cannot tell me that the Hexblade patron was elegant design. You cannot tell me that the Berserker and Champion were efficient tools. You cannot seriously believe that the expectation of 6-8 actual combats per day (which is, in fact, what the math reflects, I've run it many times) plus 2 (or preferably 3) short rests, was a wise and fitting basis, given...y'know...the vast majority of people don't want to run D&D that way and don't find it fun to do so when they try.

At the level of technique, 5e has all sorts of stuff like this. Or, y'know, I could bring up the DMG, where you can summarize easily 2/3 of it with the following passage: "Some DMs do X. Other DMs don't do X at all! It's up to you to decide whether to do X, or not." I still absolutely cannot get over the sheer comedy of the part where it talks about giving XP for non-combat stuff. Not only does it do exactly what I just said, it then goes further by saying, lightly paraphrased, "If you do decide to give XP for non-combat encounters, pretend that it was a combat encounter, and decide how much XP it should be worth." Like...for real, it literally tells you to just...pretend it isn't a non-combat encounter. With zero actual advice about how to translate a non-combat encounter into combat encounter design.

So yeah. I'm not backing down. 5e is a hot mess.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Also funny how this bad design that clearly was an error all along is selling better than anything else. But it was probably just a fluke.
I don't think that the bar was that high. WotC made a public effort to kill 4e D&D and deny its existence, gave lip service to courting OSR, moved the game back closer to 3e/PF1 style structure to win over the PF1 crowd, while making tweaks to the game that simplified it, giving it a lower barrier of entry for new and returning players.

Much like @I'm A Banana says, I'm skeptical of how much of the design quality mattered to players that much as long as those overall goals were achieved. I think that there was a real psychological component in D&D 5e's success stemming from a sense that D&D was abandoning its 4e D&D trajectory and had found its way again.
 

Clint_L

Legend
What if the player's conception of the character doesn't match the normal species stereotype, or the DM's vision of what the species "should" be like? Surely not every dwarf learns to swing a hammer, operate a forge, and lives underground.

I mean, I'm Canadian but I'm crap at hockey, and poutine...eh. Overrated.

I'm just not comfortable with species-based determinism. To me, there are a LOT of uncomfortable parallels to IRL assumptions about how people must behave based on nationality/gender/race/etc. - i.e. girls are sugar and spice and everything nice. Ultimately, characters are supposed to be people, and people are diverse.

Edit: to repeat, I have no problem with describing tendencies and cultural norms. Stating that most dwarves tend to X, Y, and Z is fine and even necessary for building a setting. My issue is with requiring the player character to be like most dwarves.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The funny thing about trying to kill something like 4e D&D and deny its' existence is that they aren't really fooling anyone except themselves.
As soon as they've actually made good on the "promise" (note quotes) to get non-3rd/5th editions into the OGL, I sincerely hope someone comes along and makes a real 4e clone. Not a "completely rewrite 4e into a game it isn't"--an actual 4e clone. Like what PF1 was for 3.5e, light tweaks at most--at least initially.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Well, yes, but that's because "power" literally meant "anything that can be done." To call something a "power" is simply to make a formalized action of it. "Powers" are actually a generic framework, which 5e spellcasting emphatically is not and never was.

There is a significant difference between "force every mechanic to be saddled with the ultra-specific faults and foibles and quirks of spellcasting" and "create a generic framework which can actually describe any action or effect." Had 5e actually done this--actually turned "spell" into a truly open, generic framework with zero implied characteristics--then you wouldn't be hearing a peep out of me, unless they had executed that goal poorly, of course.
There's almost no light between a design that encapsulates "anything that can be done" and a design that encapsulates "anything magical that can be done." They share nearly identical problems and benefits in a fantasy TTRPG. Heck, given the inherent exceptionality of a D&D PC, there's a case to be made that a 4e power is the latter!

And in both cases, I think the issue is less to do with the subsystem itself than with the idea that the subsystem should be used exclusively (or nearly so).

If that were actually their policy, then yes, I would completely agree. But that moderate policy--"evaluate mechanics to see if it would be helpful to make them spells"--absolutely must have a complementary policy. Evaluate spells to see if it would be helpful to make them NOT spells. This is something 5e has never done, and I don't expect it to ever do. They will continue the crusade of spell-ifying nearly everything supernatural that PCs do.

The "blanket condemnation" you refer to is only because we've suffered under a yoke of turning things from class features into spells for, quite literally, over a decade now. If I speak strongly, it is only because the flawed behavior has been stronger still. Unfortunately, at this point, the "spells for EVERYONE" policy has gone on so long, and been doubled down upon in 5.5e, that there's really nothing that can be done about it. The ills have been baked so deeply into the game, you'd need to do a full rewrite to flush them out. Again, this does not mean spells can't replace class features EVER. It just means that, like with Ad/Dis, they've been incredibly profligate with it, taking it to numerous places it never should have been.

I mean, I think we're both in agreement that vigilance is warranted!

I mean, your last eleven words essentially concede the point as far as I'm concerned. But to address the rest: again, a 4e "power" literally means "a thing you can do." Basic attacks are powers. Item with uses are powers. Skills have powers associated with them--some you just have, others you opt into. "Power" is literally just a word for "an action or effect that can happen." It has zero further hangups or characteristics to it. "Spell" could hardly be less like that if it tried. It has numerous specific hangups and "quirks" (IMO, mostly foibles and flaws, but hey, I'm not the one who set D&D on this course so many years ago). I certainly grant that keeping things more consistent has its uses--but that has essentially nothing to do with spell-ifying class features...and feats...and racial abilities...and...and...and...

The distinction between spells and powers is a distinction without much material difference. 4e powers had a LOT of very particular hangups and quirks and foibles and flaws. Spells do, too. Subsystems be subsysteming. Making everything supernatural into a spell is only different in some aesthetic details from making everything into a power.

And the problem there as far as I can see is less about spell or power, and more about the everything.

I'm aware of the need for Chesterton's Fence. I have put it into practice, and I find the reasons behind the design deeply, deeply wanting.

Even still: You cannot tell me that the Hexblade patron was elegant design. You cannot tell me that the Berserker and Champion were efficient tools. You cannot seriously believe that the expectation of 6-8 actual combats per day (which is, in fact, what the math reflects, I've run it many times) plus 2 (or preferably 3) short rests, was a wise and fitting basis, given...y'know...the vast majority of people don't want to run D&D that way and don't find it fun to do so when they try.

At the level of technique, 5e has all sorts of stuff like this. Or, y'know, I could bring up the DMG, where you can summarize easily 2/3 of it with the following passage: "Some DMs do X. Other DMs don't do X at all! It's up to you to decide whether to do X, or not." I still absolutely cannot get over the sheer comedy of the part where it talks about giving XP for non-combat stuff. Not only does it do exactly what I just said, it then goes further by saying, lightly paraphrased, "If you do decide to give XP for non-combat encounters, pretend that it was a combat encounter, and decide how much XP it should be worth." Like...for real, it literally tells you to just...pretend it isn't a non-combat encounter. With zero actual advice about how to translate a non-combat encounter into combat encounter design.

So yeah. I'm not backing down. 5e is a hot mess.

Blanket condemnations are useless for analysis. Specific details can be looked at in context and evaluated. None of the things you point out are the result of ignorance or malice..

Here in the land of 2024's species and spell-ifying things, that's also not a result of ignorance or malice.

"5e is a hot mess" is a Reddit post, a tweet, a hot take, a catcall, a plea for attention, not a critique.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
What if the player's conception of the character doesn't match the normal species stereotype, or the DM's vision of what the species "should" be like? Surely not every dwarf learns to swing a hammer, operate a forge, and lives underground.

I mean, I'm Canadian but I'm crap at hockey, and poutine...eh. Overrated.

I'm just not comfortable with species-based determinism. To me, there are a LOT of uncomfortable parallels to IRL assumptions about how people must behave based on nationality/gender/race/etc. - i.e. girls are sugar and spice and everything nice. Ultimately, characters are supposed to be people, and people are diverse.

Edit: to repeat, I have no problem with describing tendencies and cultural norms. Stating that most dwarves tend to X, Y, and Z is fine and even necessary for building a setting. My issue is with requiring the player character to be like most dwarves.
see this is the issue, they're not meant to be representing 'a canadian' but rather 'a human', you make a correct point that not every single dwarf in existence should innately know how to speak dwarven, how to weild a warhammer and work a forge but the comparison is not canadian VS spanish VS english, it's much closer to tiger VS horse VS gorilla, the species in question being sapient does not overwrite how their fundamental biologies are specialised and adapted to certain tasks, it's not a 'sterotype' that tigers are adapted for short burst chase ambushes and are suited for climbing with their claws while horses have highly perceptive senses and the stamina for long periods of overland travel.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
What if the player's conception of the character doesn't match the normal species stereotype, or the DM's vision of what the species "should" be like? Surely not every dwarf learns to swing a hammer, operate a forge, and lives underground.

I mean, I'm Canadian but I'm crap at hockey, and poutine...eh. Overrated.

I'm just not comfortable with species-based determinism. To me, there are a LOT of uncomfortable parallels to IRL assumptions about how people must behave based on nationality/gender/race/etc. - i.e. girls are sugar and spice and everything nice. Ultimately, characters are supposed to be people, and people are diverse.

Edit: to repeat, I have no problem with describing tendencies and cultural norms. Stating that most dwarves tend to X, Y, and Z is fine and even necessary for building a setting. My issue is with requiring the player character to be like most dwarves.
Abstractly, I agree with you. But there aren't a lot of options to balance species with. You have to balance biological advantages (like natural attacks, darkvision, wings, gills or natural AC) with something. An aarakorca can fly and has claws, a Triton can swim, a minotaur can gore. What do you give an elf that competes? We used to give them a bunch of proficiencies in weapons, skills and languages, but since that no longer is an option, we have fallen back on magical abilities and gifts from the gods as a way to balance a dwarf and a tortle.
 


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