D&D (2024) D&D species article

[Scribe]

Must all roads threads lead to Rome 4e?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think that the bar was that high. WotC made a public effort to kill 4e D&D and deny its existence,

Yeah. It did put them behind their competitor.

gave lip service to courting OSR, moved the game back closer to 3e/PF1 style structure to win over the PF1 crowd, while making tweaks to the game that simplified it, giving it a lower barrier of entry for new and returning players.

What was a good idea.

Much like @I'm A Banana says, I'm skeptical of how much of the design quality mattered to players that much as long as those overall goals were achieved.

It did not hinder the success. As I said. Probably a fluke.

I think that there was a real psychological component in D&D 5e's success stemming from a sense that D&D was abandoning its 4e D&D trajectory and had found its way again.

Maybe. And good.

Bye @Aldarc

 

[Minigiant]

Keep in mind these "newer players" are still in the honeymoon phase and typically buy every book that comes out.

Yeah

I I remember listening to a podcast or video where they said that they just started connecting that fifth edition mean they were four other ones.

You're never going to make the best version of your product by ignoring the portion of your customer base that's been supporting you the longest. They know the most about the product, what you done and tried to do over your history, and how circumstances at the time affected those attempts. In short it is a form of institutional wisdom.

The issue is that the longest time fans have material and they don't need more.

This is the core problem with TTRPGs.

Once you give a portion of a fan as satisfying core they don't need to buy more core. You can only sell them options.

And eventually you will get to option belt. Which makes an edition change necessary.

But again the satisfy fans already have the core that they need.

RPGs either live catering to new or unsatisfied fans or die catering to old satisfied fans

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sounds like what you're saying is support the status quo or stay out of the way.

You don’t need to get out of the way, but if you don’t you shouldn’t be surprised when the majority march over you.

 

[Minigiant]

Also funny how this bad design that clearly was an error all along is selling better than anything else. But it was probably just a fluke.

The part that sold 5e was the cake not the icing. The 5e cake was delicious.

We've been arguing about the icing since 5e was released.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I do not understand why Dwarves have to activate their tremor sense.

As someone who gave a player a dagger of blindsight, which was then consistently forgotten... it is so when the DM says "and out of the shadows steps a mysterious figure" the dwarf player doesn't have to interrupt by asking why they didn't notice them from the hallway. It is 100% for the benefit of DMs, to have the player need to signpost when they use such a powerful sense.

The removal of Orcs’ Powerful Build is weird, but I honestly don’t care that much. I’m more curious why they felt the need to change that instead of upset that it was removed. That’s kind of how I feel about a lot of these changes. I don’t think it’s “change for the sake of change,” but more that it was an unnecessary change that I cannot imagine anyone asked for. I’m sure WotC has their own weird justification.

It was likely to allow for the power budget to have their Temp hp ability restore on a Short Rest instead of a long rest.

I like to think of Tieflings and Aasimar as reflections of one another and I wish that was represented in the mechanics and lore. While the mechanical representation of both is pretty mediocre, the Tieflings being especially boring mechanically. My most recent versions of Aasimar are an inversion of Tieflings. Tieflings are oppressed, Aasimar are the racist oppressors. Tieflings are typically good despite their fiendish heritage (or as good as humans, at least), Aasimar are typically evil despite their celestial heritage (well, more because of it. My Aasimar use their angelic blood as an excuse for why they think they’re the best race and oppress others because of it). Aasimar and Tieflings being mirrors mechanically could make this theme stronger. I also wish they had made it so Aasimar can look like non-Angelic celestials, like Guardinals and Archons, like how Tieflings can look like Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths. That would be another interesting parallel between the two.

Yeah.... no one is going to go for "and this is the species that is racist to others"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The part that sold 5e was the cake not the icing. The 5e cake was delicious.

We've been arguing about the icing since 5e was released.

Not all of you. But I concede that point.

You mean, after a delicious strawberry icing, they put coconut on it instead of white chocolate?

 

[Minigiant]

Abstractly, I agree with you. But there aren't a lot of options to balance species with. You have to balance biological advantages (like natural attacks, darkvision, wings, gills or natural AC) with something. An aarakorca can fly and has claws, a Triton can swim, a minotaur can gore. What do you give an elf that competes? We used to give them a bunch of proficiencies in weapons, skills and languages, but since that no longer is an option, we have fallen back on magical abilities and gifts from the gods as a way to balance a dwarf and a tortle.

There are options
There was a decision not to use them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Abstractly, I agree with you. But there aren't a lot of options to balance species with. You have to balance biological advantages (like natural attacks, darkvision, wings, gills or natural AC) with something. An aarakorca can fly and has claws, a Triton can swim, a minotaur can gore. What do you give an elf that competes? We used to give them a bunch of proficiencies in weapons, skills and languages, but since that no longer is an option, we have fallen back on magical abilities and gifts from the gods as a way to balance a dwarf and a tortle.

A big part of the problem is deciding that proficiencies are no longer an option.

 

[WanderingMystic]

A big part of the problem is deciding that proficiencies are no longer an option.

That was not a problem. What they needed to do was to follow suit with A5E and added in the society where you were raised. If they would have just bumped the power level of the backgrounds a bit more to include let's say 3 tool, weapon, or armor proficiencies or hell, just give all players 2 of their choices to show how they were raised it would have been ok