D&D Still Satanic? "So my mom threw away all my D&D books..."

[Fifth Element]

Now I feel bad that I gave you flippant XP earlier. I should have saved it for this post.

I'll take a rain check. I like flippant XP just as much as the real stuff!

 

[Estlor]

I have two things to contribute to this thread.

First, the constructive contribution:

My wife doesn't associate D&D with Satan or anything like that, but she has expressed on multiple occasions that she wants my D&D books "put up" before our daughter is old enough to see them because, "They have scary pictures in them." Other than the Century Worm in 3e's Fiend Folio, I can't think of much that's scarier than having the news on these days.

Second, the non-constructive contribution:

"Yeah, my mom took all my books because she saw HoS. For some reason, she didn't mind the Demonomicon though."

 

[Dykstrav]

Children are not guests.

The relationship you are painting is completely backwards. When you have a child, by dint of creating them, you take responsibility for their well-being. Until such time as they can manage on their own, you owe them.

Children owe their parents zilch, nothing, nada. As the saying goes, they didn't ask to be born. They are not adults, and they did not incur their debts through any conscious act of their own.

Should children respect their parents and obey them? Yes, of course they should. But respect is a two way street. Children owe their parents respect as fellow human beings, not as their owners.

Well no, strictly speaking, they're not guests. Only because they weren't specifically invited to enjoy their parent's hospitality. So call it a dependent if you want, but what it breaks down to is that a child is using the resources of someone else to meet their basic needs. To me, that carries a degree of obligation.

Do children owe their parents? I think they do. Certainly, the parent should expect that a child isn't going to financially compensate them for the resources incurred in meeting their basic needs. That's not reasonable. But I do think that a degree of basic respect for the parent and basic obedience to reasonable strictures upon their behavior is perfectly reasonable. We don't agree on that and that's okay.

I'm not a parent, so I can't speak from experience there. I will say that I'd certainly have some sort of expectations for my children if I ever have any and leave it at that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'll take a rain check. I like flippant XP just as much as the real stuff!

Fair enough. I'll try to remember it when I've XPed the next...what? 25 or 30 people? What is the cut-off, anyway?

RC

 

[RedTonic]

I don't think this is the topic for a debate on parenting philosophies or deciding who is/isn't a good parent per se. I like the original topic and where it was headed before we dove into "Honor thy father" versus "Do as thou wilt" or however you want to describe these divergent notions. I hope the children of all the parents on this board and in general grow up to be happy, healthy, and well-adjusted and do you guys proud, but knocking each other over the heads probably won't measurably contribute to that end.

No, I don't have any kids. I'm 25. The closest thing I currently have to that responsibility is a cat on par with a small toddler. I would totally let her play D&D if she'd stop trying to lay on top of my open DMG when I'm using it. I also played a lot of pretend with young children when I worked briefly in child care, and I firmly believe that D&D is pretend with all of the playground rules now "codified" into numbers. I find putting D&D in those terms to help at least allay some of the suspicions of those who think I am learning black magic and will find my soul being dragged into hell.

I do not think it's useful to that type of person to say "But it's 4th edition!" Doubtless they don't actually know that there have been different editions or that there's any significant different in terms of play between them, because in terms of "substance"--that is, a fantasy game with magic, demons, gods, etc., the game hasn't really changed (despite how individual game worlds are developed, polytheism, demonology, dualism, etc. are presented in the source texts, and there are faithful people who object to that stuff on principle whether or not you can use the information in the books to actually summon demons or force angels to do your bidding). To them, I say don't play--but don't get in my way, either. However, in the eyes of the law (if not necessarily of my distant, beloved parents), I am an adult, and I can do what I want as long as it's not illegal, so I get to do that. Short of violating my personal rights or scheduling courses during game nights, no one can stop me, either.

Both of my parents played D&D, and my father got me into it. My grandmother always asks us if we "won" after game night (sadly, I haven't been able to play with my dad's group in about a year--being a few states apart does that). My maternal grandmother probably wouldn't have been so relaxed on the topic; the indicators don't point to it. Now, however, I'm an adult, and she's not really worried about anything I watch influencing my behavior towards irresponsibility or violence. She never really minded me playing videogames, but Rugrats really bothered her when I was a kid watching Saturday morning cartoons.

Internal inconsistencies are part of what being human is about. Someone's parent may have no problem with their kid watching Law & Order: Special Victims' Unit but really flip out when the same kid wants to watch a cartoon with stylized violence, let alone play a game where the kid simulates said violence (even without the sexual content of SVU).

 

[Umbran]

If you do then that's great, but your posts don't show me any evidence.

Nor do they give YOU any real evidence to say he's lying. Not agreeing with your personal view does not qualify as evidence. While he's been nice about it, questioning his veracity without good foundation is *rude*. Please don't be rude.

Folks, this is the General RPG Discussion forum. It is not the Parenting Techniques Forum. If you want to discuss parenting, take it to the Media and Other Geek Stuff Fourm, and get this back to discussion of games, and gaming culture, please and thank you.


Edit: In addition, the "don't comment on moderation in-thread" rule applies to XP comments as well. Please don't use the XP comment system in this manner. Thank you.

 

[Fifth Element]

My wife doesn't associate D&D with Satan or anything like that, but she has expressed on multiple occasions that she wants my D&D books "put up" before our daughter is old enough to see them because, "They have scary pictures in them."

This is an illustration of how different kids can be. My daugher has always loved "scary pictures", ever since she was a toddler. She loved to flip through the Monstrous Manual (2E), her particular favourite was the medusa. She's just always had a really firm grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality, and such things have never bothered her. I can't say the same about my son, who I'd say has the more typical reactions to scary things.

But I do think that a degree of basic respect for the parent and basic obedience to reasonable strictures upon their behavior is perfectly reasonable. We don't agree on that and that's okay.

I don't think you'll get any disagreement with that. The assertion was that children must follow all of their parents rules simply by dint of being raised by said parents. If your strictures on their behaviour are reasonable, then there's no trouble. If it's "my house, my rules, deal with it" then not so much.

 

[billd91]

My mom wasn't wild about me playing D&D either, but took the attitude that if I was at home with my friends on a Friday night, I wasn't out drinking and impregnating the masses or otherwise up to mischief. As long as I stayed out of trouble and continued to get all A's in school, what could she really complain about?

I believe my parents were quite happy about that as well. I had an easier curfew than my older sister did, I don't doubt, because playing D&D meant I wasn't getting into trouble, I was just being nerdy. Plus, my mother reads a LOT, so a quasi-literary hobby was A-OK.

 

[jaerdaph]

I still think his mom really just likes Pathfinder better....

 

[nedjer]

I'm thinking of blogging about it, as I think the cure for this is a Christian-themed campaign setting.

The cure is to take it down every time it crops up. D&D has never claimed to involve the actual casting of spells, real mystical creatures or miraculous occurrences. The Bible is stuffed full of mystic beings, 'spellcasting' and Old testament brutality - all of which fundamentalists claim to be absolutely real. Pot kinda calling the kettle black there. However, arguing it in that way will not get a result with hardliners.

Those with these 'arguments' need to be asked why they aren't concentrating their time on serious, proven causes of suffering and obvious 'evil', e.g. war, famine, abuse and torture that's all around them. As by distracting attention from these serious issues they are complicit in the continuance of 'evil', i.e. while they're arguing about fiction they're letting millions go to hell in a handcart.

So, until the mom and pastor spend their time writing letters for Amnesty International, publicising the plight of Syrians, sending support to besieged towns in Libya . . . not to mention the whole of Africe, they are hand-in-hand with 'evil'. This kind of approach can tap into where their priorities lie and hoists them by their own petards. (Ouch!)

Please do blog about this. I've a list of about a dozen snappy challenges to these attitudes which I will be publishing when its crisp enough. Many more of us should blog and present sound cases for religious groups to focus on charity and compassion, over witchhunting and cheap scapegoating.