D&D 5E D&D Unboxing Starter Set Video is on Youtube

[ThirdWizard]

Remember when this thread was a fun discussion that wasn't already in eight other threads? It was about a cool new product being opened?

If multiple threads on ENWorld keeps devolving into this beaten horse over and over again, this message board is going to be one of the worst sources of 5e information on the Internet. This is really getting out of hand, and it's really quite pathetic that a few (maybe 4 TOTAL) people constantly complaining about this rule and bringing it up over and over and over again feel the need to do this.

Please stop this. Please.

 

[Maliki67]

As it is written now, I don't see the second wind ability being a problem for me when I begin to run a game. If it turns out to be a problem it does look like an easy fix, and this is how I will handle it.

Since it is a "second wind" I would simply rule that you can only use when you are "winded" (either during or immediately after combat. Once you complete a short rest to recharge the ability, you are no longer winded, therefor you cannot use it again until you suffer additional hit point loss.

I see it as an ability to be used during combat, not as a substitute to spending hit dice to recover hit points during a short rest.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Last I checked... the book is written.

So a hearty salute to all of you who choose not to play the game because of it! Godspeed!

 

[amerigoV]

I listened/watched it. I like what I heard - it sounds like they have some very good thinking around the product and how it will lead into the full rules. I am going to get it even thought I am not a D&Der anymore - if nothing else I am getting a set of dice, a decent sized adventure, some rules (both booklet and the online Basic rules) in a box set for $16 (Amazon preorder + S&H) - not bad. Its probably simple enough that if my group has a true D&D itch we can scratch it with this easily enough. If not, even through I am not a D&Der anymore its a good way for me to still support the brand (I think a strong D&D is good for the business).

Perfect for me.

(I'm going to go take a couple of Second Winds now. I hope the boards survive while I am gone...).

 

[I'm A Banana]

As it is written now, I don't see the second wind ability being a problem for me when I begin to run a game. If it turns out to be a problem it does look like an easy fix, and this is how I will handle it.

Since it is a "second wind" I would simply rule that you can only use when you are "winded" (either during or immediately after combat. Once you complete a short rest to recharge the ability, you are no longer winded, therefor you cannot use it again until you suffer additional hit point loss.

I see it as an ability to be used during combat, not as a substitute to spending hit dice to recover hit points during a short rest.

It's a little fiddly, but I'm a fan of this. Tying it into receiving damage and engaging in combat removes the ability to use it instead of a short rest pretty nicely.

IN FACT, rather than a bonus action on your turn, what if it was a reaction to receiving damage or becoming bloodied? I kind of like that vibe...

 

[Tony Semana]

As it is written now, I don't see the second wind ability being a problem for me when I begin to run a game. If it turns out to be a problem it does look like an easy fix, and this is how I will handle it.

Since it is a "second wind" I would simply rule that you can only use when you are "winded" (either during or immediately after combat. Once you complete a short rest to recharge the ability, you are no longer winded, therefor you cannot use it again until you suffer additional hit point loss.

I see it as an ability to be used during combat, not as a substitute to spending hit dice to recover hit points during a short rest.

This, along with non-chaining short rests, is exactly how our table will be dealing with it.

Last I checked... the book is written.
So a hearty salute to all of you who choose not to play the game because of it! Godspeed!

+1

I listened/watched it. I like what I heard - it sounds like they have some very good thinking around the product and how it will lead into the full rules.
...
(I'm going to go take a couple of Second Winds now. I hope the boards survive while I am gone...).

Awesome sign-off

I also liked what I heard. I've been very happy with what I've been seeing with the rules as well, but I liked a lot of things I heard on the adventure design. I like the emphasis on giving the pregen backgrounds specific hooks into the setting, a built-in connection to start from. I also like that there are generally more ways to deal with each location than just combat, and some outside of the player's abilities depending on where they chose to explore.

I'm looking forward the the upcoming live play shows with some new faces.

 

[Obryn]

I don't think the intent of the rule was to allow fighters to be able to heal to full HP with a 3 hour rest. The rules are fine with that -- "we're not going to stop you from playing like that" -- but it's pretty clearly not what the rule was intended to do. From the name and the mechanic, it was likely intended to heal the fighter who just needed a few minutes to recuperate inside of a fight. It works like that, but it also works in unintended ways.

Honestly, yes, I agree.

Now, I think Second Wind as it stands is actually really weak when used as intended.

But while I'm a big fan of DMs taking a hand in ensuring the smooth workings of a game system, if chained usage isn't what they intended, it's not how they should have written the rule. It's okay if the rules don't cover every scenario and you rely on DM fiat for those (possibly large!) blank areas. But if you have a rule, and the way it's written results in undesirable outcomes, you should probably re-write it rather than require DMs to fix it at the table. Something as simple as, "this can only be used in combat" would be a bit gamey, but tie it in with flavor about adrenaline and the flow of battle and it'd work.

I mean, undesirable outcomes are why Second Wind now heals real HPs instead of handing out temporary HPs.

I don't think any of this is a particularly high bar to set for a game designer...

 

[jrowland]

Ultimately, we're still left with the underlying issue of chaining short rests being more attractive than just TAKING a short rest, and a patch that says "you, er, can't do that" isn't satisfying to me. But maybe I'll find other things work against this or that it's not as big a deal as all that.

The "Problem" of chaining short rests is only a problem of isolated mechanics outside the narrative fiction. That is, the problem is the mechanical possibility of unlimited self-healing in a short time. Its not healing after a short rest or even chaining short rests that is the issue since any class can chain short rests and use HD to heal. The crux of the issue, as far as I can understand, is the unlimited nature of those heals. Unlimited in a short time, that is less than a day (ie less than one long rest since everyone has access to unlimited healing given enough time).

So, mechanically, fighters have a mechanism to heal fully in a relatively short time...at low levels...if they take enough damage such that it takes more than one short rest to heal...if the narrative fiction allows for multiple short rests...if taking a long rest is not possible/justified...if using other forms of healing is not possible/wanted (clerics, potions, magic items, etc)...if the other players are on board with multiple short rests...yes, it is a problem. In that unlikely occurrence of events.

That seems more of a feature than a bug. Its now less likely to have a 15min work day, fighter can keep doing his thing, clerics can branch out from Healbot, Wizards have arcane recovery so they get some spells back, etc.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Remathilis]

It's a little fiddly, but I'm a fan of this. Tying it into receiving damage and engaging in combat removes the ability to use it instead of a short rest pretty nicely.

IN FACT, rather than a bonus action on your turn, what if it was a reaction to receiving damage or becoming bloodied? I kind of like that vibe...

Any minute, DDNFan is going to show up and talk about Fighters getting into fistfights with each other during their short rests to keep healing...

EDIT: Although, that WOULD explain a lot a barfights...

 

[Agamon]

I don't think it's any better a solution than "random encounters! DMG alt rules!", personally.

Which is to say, sure, it works, but it feels like a patch. Why can't the players determine that a short rest is over after an hour and then they start a new one five minutes later? Because the DM says so? Great, the DM could say a lot of things.

Ultimately, we're still left with the underlying issue of chaining short rests being more attractive than just TAKING a short rest, and a patch that says "you, er, can't do that" isn't satisfying to me. But maybe I'll find other things work against this or that it's not as big a deal as all that.

It's not, "you can't do that," it's "it doesn't work that way." If the players want to rest longer than a hour, go ahead. It just doesn't do anything extra for them. Not because the DM says so, but because the rules do (not that there's a lot of difference there, if you ask me).

A player might also want to shoot 20 magic missiles with one casting of a spell at 1st level. Good for him, but that doesn't work that way, either.