• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E D&D Unboxing Starter Set Video is on Youtube

jrowland

First Post
IN FACT, rather than a bonus action on your turn, what if it was a reaction to receiving damage or becoming bloodied? I kind of like that vibe...

I offered that solution in another thread...this thread...I can't keep track of these SW threads.

Personally I am making it a reaction to taking damage in my games. In the narrative I'll explain as "Shrugging off the hit". I'll not worry about it healing more than than the damage taken, but I could understand making it reduce the damage taken by d10+level. In this second version you could take 5 damage, SW for 7, therefore take no damage but lose the excess 2 points "healing". That's too fiddly for me, so a simple "heal" does the same thing, and for every excess heal, there will likely be plenty of under heals to balance it out.

Yeah, I know I just went on about how SW is not really a problem (up thread), but I like the narrative of "You call that a hit *shrug* you hit like a girl" more than "Let me catch my breath"
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Grazzt

Demon Lord
Fighters getting into fistfights with each other during their short rests to keep healing...

This goes along with the stupid bag o' rats thing. As DM, if my players tried that or the fistfight during resting thing to heal, I'd have to say "Ok. It's funny. It's also stupid. Stop it." And if they don't.... "During your fistfight, you guys are surprised. Roll initiative."
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Any minute, DDNFan is going to show up and talk about Fighters getting into fistfights with each other during their short rests to keep healing...

EDIT: Although, that WOULD explain a lot a barfights...

Hahaha, yeah...though tying it to a reaction to being bloodied makes it a little less prone to that. By itself, it probably wouldn't heal you up to full, in that case.

Obryn said:
I don't think any of this is a particularly high bar to set for a game designer...

Eh, games have mistakes. Always and everywhere and always. It's possibly a chance to test their iteration process RIGHT AWAY! :)

jrowland said:
The "Problem" of chaining short rests is only a problem of isolated mechanics outside the narrative fiction. That is, the problem is the mechanical possibility of unlimited self-healing in a short time. Its not healing after a short rest or even chaining short rests that is the issue since any class can chain short rests and use HD to heal.

Well, the problem is actually one of largely bypassing HD with more efficient short-rest-restored healing abilities (at low levels). And it's more than mechanical possibility -- the only thing preventing this would either be player politeness/newbieness or DM fiat.

These mechanics create a narrative where a fighter is constantly regaining his breath to recover from whatever hazards he experienced and actual brief rest is largely unnecessary. Which isn't a narrative that is really great, IMO.

jrowland said:
That seems more of a feature than a bug. Its now less likely to have a 15min work day, fighter can keep doing his thing, clerics can branch out from Healbot, Wizards have arcane recovery so they get some spells back, etc.

Sounds good to me.

Bit of a false dichotomy, though. You can have folks healing and recovering stuff without it being a replacement for a short rest.

Tony Semana said:
I'm looking forward the the upcoming live play shows with some new faces.

Me too! It'll be interesting to see how much their experiences conform to my own often newbie-heavy experiences.
 

Obryn

Hero
Eh, games have mistakes. Always and everywhere and always. It's possibly a chance to test their iteration process RIGHT AWAY! :)
Oh, absolutely, and frankly I don't really even care if Fighters heal to full every encounter.

It's just the designers' response to it that gets me.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Oh, absolutely, and frankly I don't really even care if Fighters heal to full every encounter.

It's just the designers' response to it that gets me.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the "Here's some patches or you can choose to play this game wrong and we won't stop you, but we think you're a jerk for doing it." But I imagine (hope) that was a bit of off-the-cuffery.
 

hbarsquared

Quantum Chronomancer
I'm more than happy with the thought of "chaining" short rests to regain abilities, whether it be Second Wind, spell slots, lay on hands, or whatever...

I don't see the bug, and my interpretation of the designer's intent isn't, "Well, if you want to play it wrong, go right on ahead!" but moreso, "People taking advantage of the rule aren't breaking the game, and it's simply not worth it to make rules more complicated to cover every conceivable circumstance."

There is nothing, rules-wise, preventing any group of PCs from having a long rest after every encounter. Regaining all spell slots, regaining all hp, regaining uses of all abilities. I'm okay with that, for groups that wish to do so. The same applies to short rests.

Chaining multiple short rests, whether 3 or 5 or 8, is pretty much the equivalent to a long rest. In fact, it's strictly worse. So if you are in a group where it is that important for everyone to recover abilities, they are more than welcome to.
 

thunktanker

First Post
Yep. That's why I hope they didn't change the wording for the short rest, which is at least an hour. Wanna rest a hour and half, go ahead it's a short rest. Two hours? A short rest. Three hours, still just a short rest. That's why it's vaguely called a short rest, not an hour-long rest. It's a rest that takes at least an hour, but longer if you want it to, and here's what happens when you take that rest.

I'm a bit confused that this wasn't the answer to the question in the video, because, to me, that's obviously the rules as intended.

Why can't the players determine that a short rest is over after an hour and then they start a new one five minutes later? Because the DM says so? Great, the DM could say a lot of things.

Uhhh.... That's why he's the DM.

Regardless, the players's characters have still been resting for 1 nonstop rest if they have done nothing but rest, even if the players try to say "I stop resting. Now I start resting again." That's players thinking about rules when they should be imagining what their character is up to. Their character is still just kicking back, resting away for 1 rest.

"But," you say, "I'll just then tell my character to do something nonconsquential to get out of the rest, and then I will rest again."

Clever you. But looking at the last next packet, I don't see anything about what actions would knock you out of short rest mode. If we look at the long rest, I see it provides examples like attacking, taking damage, or casting a spell. OK, if you want to knock your character out of short rest mode in order to get second wind again, and you do it by attacking something, taking damage, or using up a spell, go right ahead. I don't see where there's much of an advantage there.

"But, wait," you say, "I will have my character attack something harmless like a mouse to knock my character out of short rest mode, and then I will rest again."

Clever you. There is a point where any set of rules are pushed to their limits. In real life, we have judges who do their best to interpret rules in the spirit they were intended in order to reach the most reasonable result. A part of being a DM has to be, at least in part, being a judge. And that's not a flaw in the game. There has never been a set of rules created by anyone ever that has not required some rulings around the perimeter to prevent shenanigans. Anyone who expects different from D&D basic is a bit . . . .

Well, whatever. I was going to say something there but it didn't sound nice. So I will slap myself on the wrist and go outside and play. It's a nice day.
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
Second Wind is just poorly thought out and designed from the start.

They bypassed the Hit Dice mechanic, which was specifically invented for this sort of thing (characters being able to restore their own HP), and therefore will require a special tweak to fix when we enable a wounds or vitality module. It also won't even scale up or down with different healing rates, like if you change the short rest to 5 minutes all of a sudden this problem gets MUCH worse, more pronounced and more severe, and therefore that's no longer even an option.

They were originally saying that you could tune the game by changing the time required for a short rest. Now that only makes Second Wind stick out even worse.

Bag of rats, definitely, but it's actually worse than that because it is cheesy to have a bag of rats (or golf club of weapons), it SHOULDN'T be cheesy for a character to spam their own abilities. If it is, you've failed as a game designer if your goal is to make the game not feel cheesy. I expect at my game we will be using slow healing, lingering wounds & vitality, but it would be nice to play the normal game and not realize that fighters have effectively unlimited hit dice / self healing in 5th edition, or have to hunt around for mechanics like this that don't fit elegantly within the rest of the game rules. Why should a fighter ignore hit dice or have an ability which makes it obsolete and undesirable to use? I can see lots of fighters never running out of their daily hit dice at a certain point. Just wait another hour. 30 seconds of battle for every two hours rest and fighters never need a cure wounds cast on them.

When you look at it that way, they goofed up big time. It looks amateurish and that's because it is. They can try to rationalize their mistake away by hiding behind (DMs won't allow this), but that's an old fallback to poor game design. The DM shouldn't have to fix the system right out the gate.

I hope this is errata #1. Don't leave known bugs in the game, dudes. And they shouldn't blame players for exploiting their broken fighter self-healing ability. It's there and it's meant to be used and it will be. In 4th edition, at least all self-healing was built on surges in a unified way, and surgeless healing was supposed to be special and the domain of clerics only. It's like, as 4th edition era designers, they completely misunderstood their own game design.

I bet it's going to either go back to Temp HP which is erased after 5 minutes, or it's going to get a hard cap per day, or it's going to use hit dice to fuel it. Even being able to spend your own hit dice during combat as a bonus action is still pretty good, and it's comparable to what a barbarian can do with his rage ability.

Wizards, don't blame players for your mistakes and oversights. That's the real cheesy thing going on here. I would never have the balls to release a product into the wild and then tell people they're using it wrong when they are actually using it well. Why should fighters not maximize their own self-healing? Second Wind giving a self-heal is cheesy, on its own, regardless of spamming it. Spamming it because you can because there is no hard limit on its uses per day is merely playing your fighter well. If that's cheesy, that's not the player's fault, that's the designer's.
^This.
I would add, errata could be that second wind is usable in combat only, as was apparently the design intention, a boost to the fighter's HP in combat as a bonus action. Not spammable self heals outside of combat.
 


DDNFan

Banned
Banned
Aren't a bunch of short rests .... just a long rest?

No, not at all. You can only take one long rest per 24 hour period. You could do multiple short rest chains per day, allowing a group of mostly fighters to have a large amount of self-healing that has zero daily resource cost.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top