• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ratskinner

Adventurer
No figures, but Mike Meals mentioned in a recent L&L column that the new Red Box had sold pretty well, but hadn't translated into many additional sales of other books. The conclusion they came to from that was that lots of people were trying the game, but very few then advanced on to the 'real' game from there.

It does seem to be a key plank in their strategy to ease that transition path as far as possible, by making their "Starter Set" and the "Simple Game" the same thing, so people are playing the 'real' game from the outset.

Very much how I read it. I think the two modes of entry likely have different success rates wrt to people staying in the hobby. i.e. I think you are more likely to stay with it if you learn from an existing player/group. However, without the numbers, its hard to guess what the rates are. Wizards seems to feel that the "loss" of players after that initial toe-dipping is significant enough to warrant building the new system around reducing that loss.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ratskinner

Adventurer
As said further down in the thread I think Mearls want's to capture that real original red box lighting in a bottle. Even if most of the people who buy the new basic set don't buy anything else, if they keep playing, it's a win, and will grow the hobby. Potentially selling more basic sets and seeking out those folks who will seek out more info and detail.

Yup.

End the edition wars by starting a new side that outgrows the others?

Crazier things have happened.
 

Pour

First Post
Yup.

End the edition wars by starting a new side that outgrows the others?

Crazier things have happened.

Genius if it works. How do you realistically reconcile all the current factions of D&D? You don't, you use them for playtesting purposes, then leave them in the dust and start a new generation valuing your preferences. I mean what's the worst that can happen, you fail? I'm sure Paizo can afford Mearls a spot if it came down to it hehe.
 

Hussar

Legend
Genius if it works. How do you realistically reconcile all the current factions of D&D? You don't, you use them for playtesting purposes, then leave them in the dust and start a new generation valuing your preferences. I mean what's the worst that can happen, you fail? I'm sure Paizo can afford Mearls a spot if it came down to it hehe.

Well, 4e managed to reconcile most of the edition war crap with previous editions. I mean, you used to see all sorts of back and forth between AD&D and 3e. Now, everything pre-4e gets lumped together.
 

Iosue

Legend
Well, 4e managed to reconcile most of the edition war crap with previous editions. I mean, you used to see all sorts of back and forth between AD&D and 3e. Now, everything pre-4e gets lumped together.
This is to my great consternation. It gets frustrating when the 5e team suggest something that present in older editions but broken in 3e. Vancian magic is a great example. In my head (not having played 3e), Vancian magic is a potentially powerful, but highly limited magic system. But all too often when the subject comes up, it's always lumped in with 3e uber-magic. You can see it happen even in the reaction to the new L&L, where Mearls mentions extra-attacks. Much of the reaction has been, "Extra-attacks? Nooooooo!! They sucked in 3e!" And I'm over here thinking, "Um, they were pretty awesome, badass, and easy to use in older editions...."

Edit: Also, there's a lot of lumping all over the place. AD&D and 3e get lumped together by 4e folks. TSR folks lump 3e and 4e together. Hell, there are some hardliners who say "Everything since Dragonlance has sucked."
 
Last edited:

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
You can see it happen even in the reaction to the new L&L, where Mearls mentions extra-attacks. Much of the reaction has been, "Extra-attacks? Nooooooo!! They sucked in 3e!" And I'm over here thinking, "Um, they were pretty awesome, badass, and easy to use in older editions...."

Eh, they were semi-easy to use. Plenty of the rules surrounding them were misapplied in many games that I witnessed. Despite having a lot of complexity once adding natural attacks to iteratives and lots of extra attacks from feats, at least most people came to understand the basics of multiple attack PC. The text was, for the most part, a bit clearer on the action economy.
 

Pour

First Post
This is to my great consternation. It gets frustrating when the 5e team suggest something that present in older editions but broken in 3e. Vancian magic is a great example. In my head (not having played 3e), Vancian magic is a potentially powerful, but highly limited magic system. But all too often when the subject comes up, it's always lumped in with 3e uber-magic. You can see it happen even in the reaction to the new L&L, where Mearls mentions extra-attacks. Much of the reaction has been, "Extra-attacks? Nooooooo!! They sucked in 3e!" And I'm over here thinking, "Um, they were pretty awesome, badass, and easy to use in older editions...."

Edit: Also, there's a lot of lumping all over the place. AD&D and 3e get lumped together by 4e folks. TSR folks lump 3e and 4e together. Hell, there are some hardliners who say "Everything since Dragonlance has sucked."

I'll tell you what, though, I'm learning more about past editions (and my own edition of choice) through these various Next discussions with some very knowledgeable, creative, and frustrating people than I ever did previously. In a funny way, I'm beginning to see a lot of ways in which all the editions are alike and different in the extremes. And it's fun to refine my beliefs and preferences moving forward. I think I might have finally reached Advanced, guys...
 

I'll tell you what, though, I'm learning more about past editions (and my own edition of choice) through these various Next discussions with some very knowledgeable, creative, and frustrating people than I ever did previously. In a funny way, I'm beginning to see a lot of ways in which all the editions are alike and different in the extremes. And it's fun to refine my beliefs and preferences moving forward. I think I might have finally reached Advanced, guys...

Well, that's what I felt when I started running 4e. I've run a lot of different games of course, but for whatever reason running 4e was sort of the end of a process for me. All of a sudden all sorts of things that I never could quite figure out all made sense. Not that 4e is always the best vehicle, but after running it and figuring out how to really make it work NOW I understand a much wider range of things about GMing and RPG design. The discussions since then, and surrounding DDN, have definitely put it in organized fashion. DDN itself though? Eh, it is more a matter of looking at it with eyes that can see all the nuances.
[MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] yeah, people do lump. OTOH there are a series of overlapping characteristics of older editions. Some things CAN be generalized. Other things just change gradually from one to another and there's no exact boundary. Also things like Vancian magic ARE the same from OD&D to 3.5 rules-wise. It is the CONTEXT that makes it work differently. OD&D magic users worked pretty well. They could be powerful, but in the context of the dungeon crawl/hex crawl exploration game of OD&D, and with limited size spell lists etc they weren't really that bad. The same basic rules in the context of 3.5 are totally borked. I CAN group those games together in some respects because they share mechanics. OTOH when you play them you'd never mistake one for the other, and if you could just play OD&D there'd be little reason to change the magic system.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Also things like Vancian magic ARE the same from OD&D to 3.5 rules-wise. It is the CONTEXT that makes it work differently. OD&D magic users worked pretty well. They could be powerful, but in the context of the dungeon crawl/hex crawl exploration game of OD&D, and with limited size spell lists etc they weren't really that bad. The same basic rules in the context of 3.5 are totally borked. I CAN group those games together in some respects because they share mechanics. OTOH when you play them you'd never mistake one for the other, and if you could just play OD&D there'd be little reason to change the magic system.

Context changes were important, but much of what breaks the 3.5 wizard compared to the 1e M-U isn't context changes, but mechanical ones. Off the top of my head...

1) 1e M-U's couldn't cast in combat period; 3e Wizards have relatively easy means of casting reliably in combat (5' step, combat casting)
2) 1e M-U's if struck while casting a spell had it automatically disrupted; 3e Wizards have relatively easy means of casting spells through hardship (concentration checks)
3) 1e M-U's faced the problem that as their level increased, targets would be increasingly immune to 'save or suck' (pass saves) because saving throws always trended 'better'; 3e Wizards can expect as their level goes up that targets will often become more succeptible to 'save or suck' via there increasingly high DC's.
4) 1e M-U's faced the problem that their hit points were basically hard capped at 10 HD, that consitution was difficult to raise, and that even at 18 Con they were hard capped at a maximum of +2 hit points per level, and that they died at 0 hit points. This meant that most M-U's never had more hit points than the mid 20's, even at quite high level and as such were always one bad round from death. But 3e Wizards aren't capped on their HD, find constitution easy to ammend through standard belts, gain the same bonus hit points as fighters, and most Wizards can actually expect more of thier hit points to come through con bonus than they do through their HD. Indeed, the high expectations about Con bonus mean that low base HD is relatively less important. A wizard no longer expects to have less than half as much hit points as a fighter of the same level. As such, one of the wizards main mechanical drawbacks is greatly mitigated.
5) As a minor point, 3e Wizards saw their BAB go up at a 1:2 rate and they gained multiple attacks per round; 1e M-US saw their BAB go up at a 2:5 rate, and they never gained multiple attacks per round.
6) A great many powerful spells which had severe restrictions in 1e (haste aged you 2 years each time you cast it, polymorph other forced the target to save or die and frequently altered the mindstate of the target to the shape it found itself in, polymorphy self didn't even let you make attacks, etc.) lost those restrictions in 1e.
7) 1e M-U's didn't get bonus spells like a cleric; 3e Wizards did, additionally, many 1st level spells shifted down to being 0th level spells and the ultimate result was effectively many more spell slots than an equivalent 1e M-U.
8) 1e rounds were divided in to periods called segments, and casting a spell occurred over a that period of segments during which it was vunerable to disruption or by which time it might have lost a certain degree of relevancy. By contrast, in 3e each persons entire turn plays out in a single segment of a round (which in turn has many more segments), which means the only danger of disruption beyond easily avoidable AoO is held actions - a mechanic that forces you to forgo actions in the action economy to use and so is rare, clunky, and often inefficient. Therefore disrupted spells are very rare in most campaigns.

There were a lot of context changes as well, particularly in what we might call the 'default' game world. But I don't believe those were the most critical changes. The details of the implementation are important. In a Vancian system, balance is determined by the implementation of the spells individually. It doesn't matter how balanced the system as a whole is, if the individual spells - the little packets of rules they represent - aren't balanced then the class that consumes them isn't balanced. Much of the balance in 3e can be brought back with some fairly minor rules adjustments and spell revisions. I await high level to truly prove that, but so far things are working out perfectly and I have one more tweak to play (bringing back casting time) if the melee/martial types start losing spotlight that I'm pretty sure will close any balance gaps that begin to develop (if they do) around 11th level or so.
 

Iosue

Legend
Also things like Vancian magic ARE the same from OD&D to 3.5 rules-wise. It is the CONTEXT that makes it work differently. OD&D magic users worked pretty well. They could be powerful, but in the context of the dungeon crawl/hex crawl exploration game of OD&D, and with limited size spell lists etc they weren't really that bad. The same basic rules in the context of 3.5 are totally borked. I CAN group those games together in some respects because they share mechanics. OTOH when you play them you'd never mistake one for the other, and if you could just play OD&D there'd be little reason to change the magic system.
I would say it's less the context and more the 3e increasing spell lists, increasing spell slots, and removing just about every limitation OD&D through 2e put on spell casting. As well augmenting the actual content of the spells. Put a 3e caster in a dungeon, and I guess they do pretty well for themselves.

You mention looking at things with eyes that can see the nuances. IMO, that's exactly what doesn't happen when "Vancian casting" is automatically assumed to mean "3e-type Vancian casting". That's what I mean by lumping.

And this is pretty much par for the course for humans. We tend to be highly aware of differences in our in-group, but not in out-groups, which are viewed as pretty homogeneous. Heck, it's a rare day when a BXCM fan such as myself gets consideration for being different than proponents for AD&D 1e and/or 2e. Well, to a certain extent that can't be helped, so I don't mind that so much. I do mind when I make, say, a considered criticism of 4e (my primary game) in contrast to Moldvay/Mentzer, and the response is "So what? 3e isn't any better because of XYZ," which has happened so often I've literally lost count.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top