D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[Ratskinner]

I thought it was random when 1E dragon could breathe again? And, the evil dragons did have a small chance of spell use.

I can't recall 1E. I think in 2e there was some kind of "1d4 rounds" thing in between breaths.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well wrong in 3.X. Correct previously.

I don't recall rules about arbitrary trading-down of any spell in 3e. Whatever. I was talking in the context of design of OD&D anyway, and I KNOW FOR SURE you don't get to do it there, or in AD&D. That's what the spell Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer was for, you traded a 4th level slot IIRC for 4 level 1s, or 2 level 2s, etc, something like that.

I always thought it would be nice to do trades, but I still want my E and A powers, and I don't see why it has to be less clear as it is in DDN and harder to just build categories of spells that fit each need, have several choices in all types, etc.

 

[Hussar]

I thought it was random when 1E dragon could breathe again? And, the evil dragons did have a small chance of spell use.

But, the main difference is that a combat vs a dragon in 4E vs one in 1E or 2E is that the combat in 4E would last a lot longer at the table (leaving 3E out, as I found that to take longer than all of them)

And, that, right there is going to be a devil to design for. Why did the 1e fight take so much less time at the table? Well, you had a heck of a lot less to track. Movement in combat was not terribly important, nor was positioning. Not that it was completely absent, but, it was nowhere near as detailed as 4e (or 3e).

I mean, a decent sized white dragon in AD&D would likely be squaring off with a 4th or 5th level party. That's not a whole lot of options for the PC's. The fighter types get one attack per round (well, 2 with bows), and the casters only have about 10 spells total, several of which might not apply at this time (just how useful is Detect Magic in a fight? ). Essentially, it's roll initiative and then pelt each other with d20 rolls until one side falls down.

Yes, that's a simplification, but, probably not terribly far off. And, a white dragon has what, 30-40 HP? The fighter types are doing d12+ damage per hit. Dragon's not likely going to live more than a few rounds. So, yeah, it resolves in 15 minutes.

But, for those of us who want more tactical level complexity, it's not a terribly interesting 15 minutes. There aren't enough decision points for me. I want more.

Which is, hopefully, where all these optional rules are going to come into effect in Next.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I thought it was random when 1E dragon could breathe again? )

3 times per day.

 

[Nagol]

And, that, right there is going to be a devil to design for. Why did the 1e fight take so much less time at the table? Well, you had a heck of a lot less to track. Movement in combat was not terribly important, nor was positioning. Not that it was completely absent, but, it was nowhere near as detailed as 4e (or 3e).

I mean, a decent sized white dragon in AD&D would likely be squaring off with a 4th or 5th level party. That's not a whole lot of options for the PC's. The fighter types get one attack per round (well, 2 with bows), and the casters only have about 10 spells total, several of which might not apply at this time (just how useful is Detect Magic in a fight? ). Essentially, it's roll initiative and then pelt each other with d20 rolls until one side falls down.

Yes, that's a simplification, but, probably not terribly far off. And, a white dragon has what, 30-40 HP? The fighter types are doing d12+ damage per hit. Dragon's not likely going to live more than a few rounds. So, yeah, it resolves in 15 minutes.

But, for those of us who want more tactical level complexity, it's not a terribly interesting 15 minutes. There aren't enough decision points for me. I want more.

Which is, hopefully, where all these optional rules are going to come into effect in Next.

The main reason was the absolute *worst* chromatic dragon (huge ancient red) had, drumroll... 88 hp! Dragon hp weren't random -- they got 1 hp / die per age category. So an average-size adult red has 50 hp. An average-size adult white dragon has 30 hp.

And better yet, every round, you rolled a percentage chance based on the ratio of subdual damage taken vs. total hp to see if the dragon surrendered. Fights against dragons tend to be short furious affairs that focused on martial damage -- even the Magic-User will typically swing a staff (or cast a buff).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The main reason was the absolute *worst* chromatic dragon (huge ancient red) had, drumroll... 88 hp! Dragon hp weren't random -- they got 1 hp / die per age category. So an average-size adult red has 50 hp. An average-size adult white dragon has 30 hp.

And better yet, every round, you rolled a percentage chance based on the ratio of subdual damage taken vs. total hp to see if the dragon surrendered. Fights against dragons tend to be short furious affairs that focused on martial damage -- even the Magic-User will typically swing a staff (or cast a buff).

I never had the 'short' experience you and Hussar are describing. First of all that white dragon's breath does 30hp damage, flat. A 6th level fighter on average will BARELY survive that, the wizard and the thief are both dead EVEN IF THEY SAVE on average, and the AoE is pretty good sized. This means the fight isn't a matter of running up and hacking on the thing. It is far more a matter of planning out casting every reasonable buff, and then making some intricate plan that gets the PCs right up next to the thing, because yes, it is possible to win in a round or two, IF YOU LIVE. Yes a 6th level fighter is doing d12 damage, but that's d12 +3 or something maybe, and only one attack at 6th, with maybe a 50/50 to-hit (maybe less), so maybe 9 damage every other round. The rogue MIGHT get lucky and backstab for 2x d6 damage, maybe with +2 at best, so another 9 once and then 5 every other round thereafter. The wizards 6d6 lightning bolt is probably the deadliest thing out there, with some real luck it could kill outright, etc.

Given that the dragon will surely move to thwart easy melee attacks and can't really be stopped from toasting the wizard on round 2 at the latest, it will be an interesting fight and won't be over in 15 minutes. Remember too, the dragon has things prepared, 100 years worth of prepared for an adult dragon. IME the whole process will take a good 90-120 minutes to play out. Probably a bit faster than the 4e fight, but maybe not. I did my example 'white dragon' fight in 4e in about 1 hour.

 

[Celebrim]

Fights against dragons tend to be short furious affairs...

That was my experience as well. If you got ambushed by a dragon, you either killed it in 1.5 rounds or it was a TPK. Dragons in 1e were the ultimate glass-cannons. Never in the history of the game has anything ever hit has hard relative to the expected hit points of a PC as a 1e dragon breath weapon. Most of them would outright kill PCs even if the save was made.

That said, because of that, I also can relate to AbdulAlhazerd's description of the encounter as being one of meticulous planning. If you knew you were going up against a dragon, you also knew you had to win by round two because no one was likely to survive a third breath attack (and likely, not even the second). So you had an invisible hasted elven thief/M-U using poisoned weapons, fighters buffed with elemental resistance and anything else you could stack on them, and plans for how to get the wizards oppurtunity to cast their big guns without being disrupted. Then you hoped that it wouldn't win suprise, because if it did, you were dead.

 

[Nagol]

I never had the 'short' experience you and Hussar are describing. First of all that white dragon's breath does 30hp damage, flat. A 6th level fighter on average will BARELY survive that, the wizard and the thief are both dead EVEN IF THEY SAVE on average, and the AoE is pretty good sized. This means the fight isn't a matter of running up and hacking on the thing. It is far more a matter of planning out casting every reasonable buff, and then making some intricate plan that gets the PCs right up next to the thing, because yes, it is possible to win in a round or two, IF YOU LIVE. Yes a 6th level fighter is doing d12 damage, but that's d12 +3 or something maybe, and only one attack at 6th, with maybe a 50/50 to-hit (maybe less), so maybe 9 damage every other round. The rogue MIGHT get lucky and backstab for 2x d6 damage, maybe with +2 at best, so another 9 once and then 5 every other round thereafter. The wizards 6d6 lightning bolt is probably the deadliest thing out there, with some real luck it could kill outright, etc.

Given that the dragon will surely move to thwart easy melee attacks and can't really be stopped from toasting the wizard on round 2 at the latest, it will be an interesting fight and won't be over in 15 minutes. Remember too, the dragon has things prepared, 100 years worth of prepared for an adult dragon. IME the whole process will take a good 90-120 minutes to play out. Probably a bit faster than the 4e fight, but maybe not. I did my example 'white dragon' fight in 4e in about 1 hour.

Abso-frikkin-lutley!

I'm not saying the fight is easy just fast! The Monster Manual has an example fight of an attempt to subdue a huge ancient red. The PCs have surprise, the dragon starts off asleep, and at least three PCs are dead by round two. The combat would probably run 10 minutes tops though. The PCs get some bad luck in the later rounds (the dragon refuses to be subdued), but the big problem they suffer in that combat is lack of preparation.

The tactical/strategic depth of play occurred before engagement rather than during engagement. The actual engagements tended to be quite short for 'show piece' fights like a solitary dragon.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Abso-frikkin-lutley!

I'm not saying the fight is easy just fast! The Monster Manual has an example fight of an attempt to subdue a huge ancient red. The PCs have surprise, the dragon starts off asleep, and at least three PCs are dead by round two. The combat would probably run 10 minutes tops though. The PCs get some bad luck in the later rounds (the dragon refuses to be subdued), but the big problem they suffer in that combat is lack of preparation.

The tactical/strategic depth of play occurred before engagement rather than during engagement. The actual engagements tended to be quite short for 'show piece' fights like a solitary dragon.

I don't know. Somehow the table times that you quote, while you might think they would apply, don't seem to in practice. There is always a sort of 'friction' at the table, and I always found it manifested more in AD&D where a wrong move was your last, than say in 4e where I've really encouraged my players (and they've picked it up) to move along, play like you really did have 6 seconds to think about it. I do think our 1e fights took LESS time, maybe even 25% or 50% as long for less critical fights, and less than equal time for boss fights. Not 10 minutes vs 1.5 hours though, there wasn't that much disparity. I'd like it if 4e fights were twice as fast. I think somewhat less choices (3 main ones, maybe a couple options for each perhaps, no more than 7 options total for a given PC in any given situation). The options should be a bit more obviously keyed to certain situations too. Obviously get rid of a lot of interrupts/OAs/etc, reduce the number of buffs and debuffs (but make each one more significant), and tweak up the swinginess a little bit. I also think that the power curve being a bit less steep won't hurt, instead of everything going up by 1/level on average it could be cut back to 2/3 levels, giving a good bit wider range, and then with buffs and debuffs being rarer but more powerful you can imagine quick desperate assaults against something like a dragon, or a bunch of relatively weak monsters springing a trap on the party and being a real threat for a round or two before falling to the party in a quick sharp encounter. 4e requires careful engineering and system mastery by the DM to make those work well.

 

[Nagol]

I don't know. Somehow the table times that you quote, while you might think they would apply, don't seem to in practice. There is always a sort of 'friction' at the table, and I always found it manifested more in AD&D where a wrong move was your last, than say in 4e where I've really encouraged my players (and they've picked it up) to move along, play like you really did have 6 seconds to think about it. I do think our 1e fights took LESS time, maybe even 25% or 50% as long for less critical fights, and less than equal time for boss fights. Not 10 minutes vs 1.5 hours though, there wasn't that much disparity. I'd like it if 4e fights were twice as fast. I think somewhat less choices (3 main ones, maybe a couple options for each perhaps, no more than 7 options total for a given PC in any given situation). The options should be a bit more obviously keyed to certain situations too. Obviously get rid of a lot of interrupts/OAs/etc, reduce the number of buffs and debuffs (but make each one more significant), and tweak up the swinginess a little bit. I also think that the power curve being a bit less steep won't hurt, instead of everything going up by 1/level on average it could be cut back to 2/3 levels, giving a good bit wider range, and then with buffs and debuffs being rarer but more powerful you can imagine quick desperate assaults against something like a dragon, or a bunch of relatively weak monsters springing a trap on the party and being a real threat for a round or two before falling to the party in a quick sharp encounter. 4e requires careful engineering and system mastery by the DM to make those work well.

Way back in the day, I DMed AD&D durig lunch break. There was time to punch through at least one combat (with a couple of notable exceptions like a large bunch of hill giants with wolves) after some basic exploration and set-up in 40 minutes.

Multiple mundanish opponents took the longest -- bandits, orcs, etc so those got shifted to weekend play. Dragons, liches, vampires, and other very scary solitary things took between 10-30 minutes at the combat table though the player planning might take an hour or more beforehand (typically out of game time).

Dragons tended to be really fast. With luck, every PC would get a single action and then the dragon would fail its subdual chance. With really bad luck, after the first round the survivng PCs would be more worried about how to get away alive than continuing the fight.