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D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

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Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
It refers to the ability to house rule fixing problems, that a problem does not exist because you can house rule it.
I said that the inability to customize or have mid-treasure games was problematic. You said "no it wasn't" because the DM can choose to give out less treasure than prescribed. That's saying fixed treasure parcels are not a problem because you can house rule how much treasure is awarded.
First of all, Oberoni primarily refers to "broken" rules and systems like LFQW.

Second, there is nothing preventing you from running a "mid treasure" game. At all. Even in the scope of the rules. Treasure is, and has always been, DM purview, so Oberoni doesn't apply. Further, nothing stops you from using IB, and sprinkling in some magic items for flavour. I do it all the time, and the builder even plays ball!

My favourite book for 3e was Unearthed Arcana that did just that. I loved a mass of pre-designed hacks done by experienced designers who know the game, designed to avoid "ridiculous cascade effects". (Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.)
Yeah, much as I loved 3.x UA, it was not without its pitfalls, despite being designed by so-called professionals. I think that says more about the nature of the system they were working with than their abilities as game designers though.

I did a little toying with 4e when it first came out, making some house rules and the like. I eventually gave up because my players were entirely reliant on the character builder, and it was too much effort to get the game to do what I wanted.
It was easier to go with a game that stated closer to what I wanted, a game with a better payoff:effort ratio.
Similarly, I have been hacking 4e since it came out (after having played with "stock" rules). In an effort to accommodate my players that do use the builder, and to keep headaches to a minimum, I make most of my changes on the DM-side. As my group became more experienced, they started only using the builder for a shortcut and still either write down their characters on sheets or use online sheets, which has freed up my ability to use deeper "hacks" - but even so, it can be done within the builder, and all you need to do is add in "placeholder" items/feats/powers and just make a note about any differences. In that regard, it's really no different than any other RPG in which you would need to do that. As a player, I would always expect to have to make notes on things eventually.

And again, I agree with your last point, which is why I don't run 3.x, PF, or have much interest in the direction that Next is taking - because it's still easier for me to start with a game that is closer to what I want (4e) and go from there. Based on what I have seen of Next, it's already going to be more work to do what I want, so I find it really funny that people are telling me that I'm wrong for leveling criticism at it for those reasons.

And no everyone wants to hack a game system themselves, especially an unfamiliar one. I agree that 4e was quick customizable once you got the hang of it, but that took some time and skill. And the game itself didn't offer any suggestions or help, and because of the GSL prohibition on altering the rules (and fluff) there were not even any 3PP to do the work for you or mine for ideas.
While YMMV, I found that 4e was easier and quicker to master, requiring less time and skill than prior editions (certainly much less than 3.x). Maybe I'm getting smarter, or more systems-savvy as I age, but I don't think that's the case. I think the baseline is just easier to understand; it's very clear about its expectations and what the nuts and bolts do, and it's also very clear how changing those "moving parts" will affect everything else. That said, I would have loved an "official" UA for 4e.

As to the GSL, I honestly don't care, outside of the fact that it means I will never get a 4e-PF. I never used any 3rd party material under 3.x, because honestly, most of it was garbage, IMO (suddenly every basement-dweller thought they were a game-designer). Sure, there were a few gems, but even so, most of those were not permitted in organized play or online games that I was a part of, so even the stuff I had or wanted to use just collected dust.

It would have been nice to see more official adventure support from 3PP, but at the same time, it is trivial to run a Paizo AP under 4e with a few minutes prep time to pick monsters for the encounters, thanks to its efforts to streamline things behind the screen.
 
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Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
Huh? It has tiers, and levels within tiers.

AD&D allows PCs to punch out dragons (I'm thinking mid-to-high level monks) and allows PCs to jump more than 6' vertically (a 1st level barbarian's spring, or a 19th level thief-acrobat's high jump to land on a higher surface). So if the goal of D&Dnext is to emulate prior editions, I would have thought both those things are absolute necessities!

And that's before we get to building PCs who emulate Hercules (a model for a fighter mentioned in both Moldvay Basic and the 2nd ed PHB). I would expect Hercules to be able to punch out a dragon, and also to be able to leap higher than the 5'+ I saw on a Yahoo video the other day.

If I wanted to play AD&D 2nd ed I'd play a retro-clone. I want DDN to be better than a retro-clone (with the bugs fixed).

Hercules is more a super-hero type, which the game could support, but he'd need a magically endowed strength to wrestle a dragon or punch it out. Maybe a storm giant belt could do the same thing. Do dragons have DR? I didn't read the bestiary.
 

It's not impossible. I'll get into this more below.


Or maybe, just maybe, you are not the sole voice of 4e fans. That maybe you are not a representative sample of what the 4e community wants. IF there's even such as thing as "the 4e community" and not a wide array of people who played and enjoyed 4th Edition.

Let's presuming for moment that the majority of 4e fans are unhappy with 5th Edition. Now, this is a big presumption because saying "the majority of gamers believe X" is a pretty darn bold statement. I'd be wary about saying "the majority of all gamers like rolling dice." But for the sake of discussion let's assume that a solid majority is dissatisfied with what they've seen so far of D&D Next.
This still does not mean that they'll all be dissatisfied with the same things: different people might be more upset about different things. Some might not like the return of Vancian casting while others might be dissatisfied with the current design of the fighter. Others might long for the return of the combat grid rules or second wind. Still others might be pining for the warlord.
With opinions spread out all over the place, it's quite possible no one group is really unhappy enough with a single element to hit the 10% mark.

Let's also do some pretend math. Given the playtest is free and has attracted players from all editions, let's say that 4th edition players make up a solid third of the playtest. So 1/3rd is 4e, 1/3rd is 3e/PF, and 1/3rd is 1e, 2e, Basic, and OD&D.
(This is actually a pretty high percentage given there are roughly equal numbers of Pathfinder players, and given the best selling edition of all time is still 1st Edition.)
Now, if half of all 4e players are unhappy with 5e, that's still only 16%. So half of all 4e players participating are happy (or content) and the other happy are dissatisfied with as few as two different elements, that cuts the percentages down to 8%.
Well, all of that of course would be under the assumption that NOBODY ELSE had a problem with any of those things. Clearly it would be MUCH more likely that if a significant part of even 1/3 of the active players were to not like something it would reach the 10% threshold.

To be clear, I don't think there are any conspiracies or anything else like that, but I DO think that the surveys don't ask the kinds of questions that would reveal why someone like myself perhaps would not like the direction DDN is going in. In fact I find it very difficult to even answer the survey questions because the whole set of premises are so far off. The game they are asking questions about is so completely far from what I am looking for that the choices provided aren't even meaningful, and they're asking about details. Its like asking me what color of dashboard I'd like in my Jeep. I don't want a Jeep! I don't even want a car. The question isn't meaningful at all.

I also think that its always possible to interpret both questions and answers in many ways, and the people on the receiving end of the survey clearly have a whole different agenda than I do. I really don't think that they're likely to come to the conclusions that I need them to come to if I would be satisfied. We all know how this is, everyone looks at the world through their own biases. I just think Mike's are pretty clear.

For starters, please remember Mike Mearls is the manager of the entire D&D Brand. He's not really writing or designing the game. He's not in charge of the design.
But he is the one that will take all the blame if it fails. Given he's risking his job, future employment in his field, and the existence of a hobby he's enjoyed since he was a child... don't you think he'd want to be sure and play it safe? To read the surveys and feedback carefully?

No, Mike is the manager of R&D and self-admittedly 'Chief Designer' on DDN (since Monte Cook left way back when). He is not just in charge of the design, he's the most in charge of it of anyone and IMHO (I'm not there, so I am taking a guess based on the way he and the other DDN designers talk) that he's deeply involved, if not the guiding hand on the whole design, that it is his baby.

I don't think he's careless, no, but PLAINLY there is a real huge disconnect with a really significant segment of D&D players. This is abundantly clear to me simply from reading threads in different places and talking to people. Its clear to me that DDN is not serving the needs of the people that I play with, that's for sure. I know you can pass all that off as a small fringe of people and an anecdote, but I think Mike's got his agenda, and he's darn well going to shape the game in the shape that he has in mind. I don't see where anything beyond details is really negotiable. I don't know if that's conscious or unconcious, but its inarguably there.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Earlier surveys did ask what edition you liked best. I guess they used that as a reference point and I suppose 4th ed did not fare to well in that survey.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
I can't speak for what other 4e fans want for DDN to appeal to them, but I really don't think what I am looking for requires anything close to "redoing 4e".

Hence, the "in aggregate" part. ;) No...okay a small number of 4e fans are specifically asking for a 4e update/revision. The rest each want this aspect or that aspect, none of which would mean a redo individually. Taken together it amounts to a re-do. I dunno whether fans of other editions feel the same. The specificity of the positions seems unique to the 4e group, AFAICT.

The example games I listed are pretty diverse, and very unlike 4e - but all have tight, clear, elegant (in the mathematics sense of "as simple as possible but still fully and certainly meeting the intended aim") rules.

If DDN managed to have such a basic rules structure I would be far more interested in it, regardless of the other changes included. As demonstrated by PTA, the rules mechanisms themselves don't need to be anything even vaguely similar to 4e to be included in clear, explicit and unambiguous rules. There's room for a myriad of RPG systems, but these days I definitely regard having precision, clarity, structure, explicitness and lack of ambiguity as simply good design. The rules document is there as a communication; clear, precise, complete communication is always better than unclear, imprecise, ambiguous, vague or cluttered communication.

I totally agree. If I could find people to play such games as more than one-shots, I'd be playing them regularly.
 

pemerton

Legend
If I wanted to play AD&D 2nd ed I'd play a retro-clone. I want DDN to be better than a retro-clone (with the bugs fixed).
My point was that, by any of the standards that the D&Dnext team have put forward for their design (namely, emulating past editions' play experiences), a PC being able to jump higher than 6' isn't a bug.

Then you roll dice for your ability scores?
No, but I didn't realise that you had stats in mind. Are you really saying that you can't vary the stat points buy in 4e?

I'll have to look at where that is in the book.

<snip>

I never found the 4e DMG easy to navigate. Nothing was every where I thought it should be.
In this particular case I found it by opening the table of contents, going to the chapter "Rewards" and then the subheading "Experience Points". I turned to that page - page 120 - and found it under a sub-subheading on the next page.

I DO think that the surveys don't ask the kinds of questions that would reveal why someone like myself perhaps would not like the direction DDN is going in. In fact I find it very difficult to even answer the survey questions because the whole set of premises are so far off.
I agree with this. For instance, I completed a spell survey which I couldn't even make sense of, because all the spells were (as best I could tell) stated in 3.5 terms. They didn't relate either to the classic D&D or the 4e spell lists that I am familiar with.
 

No, but I didn't realise that you had stats in mind. Are you really saying that you can't vary the stat points buy in 4e?
Not without house ruling the game. And it would be nice to have a ballpark: i.e. X is too many and Y is too low, A is a high powered game and B is a low powered game.

4e was designed by people who didn't think you'd need that, who seemed to believe a single page of advice and guidance on house rules was enough.
It's a mentality that didn't sit right with me. It doesn't affect the playability of the core game any, it's just a stylistic choice.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
Not without house ruling the game. And it would be nice to have a ballpark: i.e. X is too many and Y is too low, A is a high powered game and B is a low powered game.
You can roll for stats and the CB will call it houseruled even though it's in both the PHB and the RC. I just don't think that they felt it necessary to spell out the fact that you can alter the number of stat-points to hand out at character creation. I think it should have been explicitly stated with some rough ideas, as you point out, but technically this is houseruling in any game; the house (or DM) sets the stat-buy threshold. This was true in 3.x as well, although they at least gave several suggested options, but they also gave a "default" value, so technically anything other than that value was "houseruling" as well by your definition.

I think that by having the chart for point-buy, it's implicit that you can adjust the numbers to suit. Even our own Living 4e on ENWorld does that.
 

I just get so sick of this trope, in fact I'm surprised we still get away with these posts here... lol.

Well, they cancelled four books and stopped producing new content. The final 4th edition book was the Dungeon Survival Handbook published in May 2012. Which puts the lifespan of 4e at just under four years: June 2008 - May 2012. Now, assuming 3.5e was a separate edition from 3.0e it ran from July 2003 to December 2007 putting it a hair over four years.
So 4e lasted several months less than 3.5e.
That's a very peculiar and biased way to measure. 4e is the currently supported edition of D&D, which WotC is shipping as a product as we speak. It is the ONLY edition for which any support material is being provided, for which customer support is provided, for which errata is provided, and the only edition which has related content being published on DDI. Nor has WotC actually said that DSG is somehow the 'last book of 4e' (I don't really dispute that they're not going to publish any new 4e books, that may well be true, but neither of us know that). In fact, given that they won't have a replacement system this year, I wouldn't really be at all surprised to see some 4e material at GenCon etc. Even if we never do, 4e isn't 'dead' at all, it has lasted as long as 3.5, and even slightly longer.

As I've said before, they wouldn't have launched the D&D Next project if 4e was making a satisfactory revenue stream.
But you have nothing to support that, and even if we were to accept this statement out of the blue at face value then how do you explain the discontinuation of 3.5? Or 3.0 for that matter? Clearly the answer is that WotC wants to make top dollar off D&D and selling into ANY edition that is more than 3-4 years old is a losing proposition. This has always been true since 1e finally saturated the market in the mid 80's and fell off a cliff.

By the time 5e launches they will have been working on the game for three years. The first year (2011-12) they continued to release books written by freelancers while the in-house staff worked on the game. This means WotC was paying people other than their salaried staff writers to write books. The staff paid to make content that generates profit for WotC essentially does not generate profit for three years. Three years of salaries, benefits, office space, and the like.
WotC has ALWAYS used loads of freelancers. At no time did they not employ very significant numbers of them. In fact I remember talking to a guy who was a freelance editor on 3.5 projects and on 4e projects. They did it from day one and it was nothing new. In fact most of what the core product people inside WotC seem to do is high level product design, branding, strategic planning, R&D, and production management more than anything else. Of course they did the first wave of 4e products MOSTLY in-house because you don't generally farm out core books and it takes time to get a new product 'in the groove' so you can be sure to maintain quality when using outside people. So there's no "three years of costs" that has been sunk into DDN, 90% of those people's jobs has been doing 4e stuff, I guarantee you.

From an interview Mike Mearls gave the Tome Show podcast we know there are roughly 20-25 people involved in the D&D brand. Let's assuming as few as half will have spent the three years writing and testing the game and not been involved in board games, novels, or the miniature games. Even at a low salary of $30,000 a year, that's over a million dollars in salaries alone paid for the development of 5th Edition. Again, not including office space, utilities, computers, benefits, travel expenses to conventions, and the like.
And again, I think your assumptions are way off. I think a small number of people began to turn their effort towards products beyond 4e in 2010 (the recent MM interview talks about this actually) after Essentials was wrapped up. That means some R&D people and product strategy people gradually began to dedicate some hours to that, in concert with that they cut back on the release schedule for 4e books, probably putting dev time only into checking and reworking crunch coming in on contract, etc instead of working up new 4e ideas (this was the era when a couple of books were canceled). I think MME was really the final book that had significant internally designed crunch. You can see where the transition was a bit shaky in HoS.

Since then, as 4e projects have reached fruition some of the bandwidth of additional people has been redirected to DDN work, but 4e stuff is still always ongoing. There have been organized play things, DDI content, 4e errata, etc to continue with. I would suspect that NOW they're pretty much in the DDN crunch, so it is now shifting, the freelancer management stuff is wrapped for now, except for DDI, and we're down to novels, support, and working on DDN. For the next year? Yes, DDN will undoubtedly be the bulk of many of those people's work, but all of the last 3 years, hardly.

So either 4e was not a major commercial success (i.e. "failed") or it was doing fine and WotC decided to piss away a million dollars on the hopes of something better.
You guys just love that word 'failed'. This notion is really pretty ridiculous. You put whatever amount of money into product development that will make sense at any given time, its a business. They spent X amount on developing 4e and it grossed in some amount of money. Either it was a good ROI or it was a bad ROI, and nobody outside of WotC and Hasbro Corporate has the faintest clue what that ROI number is. If they spent $1 million (or whatever its been) on DDN then they have concluded that they can make a higher ROI on that than on spending that $1 million on say 4e splat book development. Great, but that doesn't mean that 4e 'failed' or that they couldn't have made money continuing it, just that they could make more some other way. That's just how products work and companies work. Trust me, I run one. I make these kinds of decisions.

Now, keep in mind, the reasons 4e failed might only partially involve the system. There are many, many other factors that likely influenced its declining sales. Such the ability of people to get all the content via the Character Builder for a single monthly fee, the lack of 3rd Party support, the radical revisions to the lore of the game, the "nuking" of the Forgotten Realms, and devaluing the core books via updates and accessories that replaced the PHB. None pf those have anything to do with the rule system or the game but easily could have impacted sales.

Again, you really have to begin to understand business. It isn't about products that succeed or fail. It is about ROI, and pretty much nothing else. Any edition which has gone 4 years is unlikely to be able to compete with the idea of spending the same money on new core books for a new edition, which are known to be VASTLY the highest selling part of any game. The 4e PHB1 was the highest selling RPG book in history. That doesn't mean 4e is still a gold mine. You just have to refresh your product. Frankly all the various talk about this and that aspects of DDN and Mike's going on about what audience he's chasing and etc is quite secondary. The primary drama here is the splatbook treadmill. I'd say Strategically WotC is trying to change the tempo a bit, because they'd like to time things so that next time Paizo releases a core refresh that they can FOLLOW it. They learned that lesson good, its better to release your core books 6 mo after the other guy and cut out the tail of his sales and force him to burn money, like they are now.
 


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