D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

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Might want to read it then, it got this dread "simulation" element whereby you get a certain number of points to distribute each level to show what your current was working on in his free time.

Or was this just another hyperbolic attack on 3X from a disgruntled 4e fan?

Well, the players had points they earned for leveling and then spent willy nilly, flavour text aside.

Personally the issue was "specialized" skill spend made a mockery of challenges by 3-5 level as "optimizing" destroyed any valuable (from an interaction stance) contribution. Having run an Eberron campaign in 3e for 3 years, my biggest PITA was the search capabilities of a certain gnome !

Regarding @permerton suffering 4e disgruntlement, if you've read his posts, not likely.. the hyperbole lies elsewhere
 

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In a scene based game yes. In a goal based game that wall would be appropriate for a well made town or castle wall while raining. If the PCs happen to be level 10 when they try to climb it is a different matter.


Again, that is scene based design. The door is reinforced because it is supposed to be a worthy challenge for the PCs of the current level. In a goal based game the door is reinforced because it is a important door.
I just don't know where you get this from, to me what you're saying simply makes no sense. When a DM devises adventures he most certainly devises them with some idea in mind of what level of PCs will be adventuring in them. I know there are these people that swear up and down they run a 'perfect sandbox' and the PCs just wander around at will and run into whatever, but it just doesn't ever happen that way. DMs put most of their effort into certain parts of their world and both they and the players are usually trying to figure out how to get the characters into the fun and interesting part and NOT into the boring and ridiculously pointlessly deadly or trivially easy part. Nor are you likely to have pregenerated a whole campaign worth of sandbox, you invent new stuff as you go along, the PCs move into new and 'higher level' areas, etc. This means that the GENERAL pattern is that PCs are in level appropriate challenge areas most of the time.

Moreover, as I've said several times over already, there is no reason why 4e or 5e characters do different things from 2e or 3e characters. In all cases it is quite possible that now and then players will engage with some specific challenge that is of some other level than their own, usually easier, but now and then lower level PCs WILL get thrown some weird ultra-challenging check. I see no reason to believe this won't happen in all editions. It may happen more or less (maybe even not at all) depending on your style of DMing, Pemerton may well only run into that in a situation where PCs reprise a previous situation (can happen especially in towns, but not too often), and it would be rare. You might encounter it somewhat more often in your highly sandboxed game, perhaps. The point is you could be using 4e rules and Pemerton could be using 2e rules and it would still be the same thing.

Which means all doors the effectively encounter are adamantium as all others aren't worth mentioning. Besides this is exactly the advise 4E gives you (at least at the beginning of its cycle)
No, all 4e does is point out that simple wooden doors will not challenge an epic party. They may well EXIST, but they're either set dressing or effectively terrain (they can block LoE/LoS, take an action to break through, etc). There's nothing wrong with this. You're playing Gondzog the Mighty, Terror of the North, 26th level Demigod, your story is about hewing through the links of the chain which holds the world in place, not breaking down the flimsy wooden door to Orcus' loo.

Or the problem is that we have a different idea what is "genre appropriate".
It wasn't about specific genre appropriate things. It was about knowing WHAT IS the genre appropriate thing in a given setting.

It is basically the same scene based setup like in 4E where every character has a chance to do everything, training or not. The only difference between 4E is that instead of both scaling skills and DCs (for a net difference of 0), nothing is scaled at all.
But that's a big difference and that was exactly what I was questioning the value of. They aren't the same. IMHO 4e is avoiding a serious pitfall there, and one that is much more relevant than the corner case where it should be hard for the 25th level wizard to pick the door to the level 1 lock on the Mayor of Squatville's hovel. Even if arguably that might reasonably still be hard for that wizard, its just not coming up.

Actually players were required to do just that when 4E first came out. There was no backing out of skill challenges. It likely has changed by now, but this initial version shows how 4E was designed.

No, they were never required to roll. The very first version of the SC rules had players rolling initiative and deciding their actions in order, you could still do nothing if you wished. However this whole view of SCs is rather flawed, and even the original DMG1 SC text makes it quite clear that an SC is a dynamic situation where different things happen based on the narrative. A character can 'back out' potentially in many ways, but its not guaranteed that the opportunity will exist, some situations have their own momentum. So yes, if a character is steering a boat down a gorge then she probably can't opt out of steering past rocks. OTOH if the characters are having a go at cracking a puzzle lock on a tomb then its pretty much OK if one character steps back. It would be IDEAL however if there's some other element to the challenge said character can engage. Once in a while maybe there isn't, if the scene isn't going to be long and drawn out then a simple challenge can quite readily be handled by one or two characters. The point is if those one or two characters don't happen to be there, or don't exist at all in the specific party (say its a module you're running) then its not a disaster, the PCs you do have can at least try to muddle through. Maybe if the players are clever they will have even equipped themselves in some special way to cover that weakness. I also don't see anything in 4e that indicates that there can't be easier paths to travel, etc. Normally however it makes sense if all paths are at least within the same ballpark of challenge lest you risk anticlimax.
 

When I played 4th edition I always got the impression that only something significant needs to be part of the adventure. Everything was supposed to scale along with you so your 10th level party didn't come up against that 3rd level party of goblins because it wasn't significant, it always felt like we were climbing a ladder.

Again though all D&D games have this basic format and always have. It is rather silly to think that there was a DM who went out and bought B2, G1, S3, and A1 and then handed his level 1 PCs plot hooks to all four modules and let the players guess what they were going to go up against. No, he'd start you off in B2, you'd slag goblins for a while, then learn about the Slave Lords, go romp through A1-4, and then eventually hit the high level S and G modules, with the DM feeding you plot hooks from one to another along the way. Sure, you might have a choice between S3 and G1 at some specific point, but you are ALWAYS playing through a graded series of challenges.

Even the most utterly sandboxed game where the DM says "OK, you can dungeon crawl or you hex crawl, have fun" has a dungeon where the levels get harder the deeper you go, and the wilderness gets nastier the further "north" the party ventures. This is clearly outlined in the 1e DMG in very plain language and demonstrated in the provided encounter tables.

In ANY game it is of course POSSIBLE to come up against the '3rd level party of goblins'. In a sandbox it is just a dust off, and in a narrative game using say Pemerton's technique it would probably be a setup for something or a result of the party deciding to specifically go after some low level goblins (presumably they have their reasons).
 

There's nothing wrong with this. You're playing Gondzog the Mighty, Terror of the North, 26th level Demigod, your story is about hewing through the links of the chain which holds the world in place, not breaking down the flimsy wooden door to Orcus' loo.

I lol'ed at this one. I tried to xp you for making me laugh, but I need to spread it around more.
 

@Jester

thanks for the considered response, and it is complex.

In all honesty, since playing D&D since '78 I haven't ever really experinced the all characters start at 1st ( except maybe characer death at 3rd or less), but yes explicit rules this is the challenge level (ie scaling DC) would be problematic. My experience was the character came in at lowest average level of the party on min xp withput magic items.
Yeah, I only saw it used a lot in one specific campaign that Darcy created, and that thing was built to be a pure meat-grinder. All the PCs started as level 1 minions of The Big Bad and the idea was to climb as close to the top of the heap as you could before some other characters did for you (all hopefully without destroying the Abode of Evil, since that would kinda ruin things). It was clever, but definitely not typical (and nobody ever made it to 7th level in like a year of play using 2e rules).

Personally, i've always palyed games were "your decisions matter and change the difficulty", tahtsw the point of intelligent play. Maybe the problem with "narrative" play is that for some that in unearned and somehow feels unfair?

Well, lets imagine what would happen in a game more like 4e where the focus is on story and not simulating a dangerous environment. In that game the PCs still have decisions to make and clearly when they make choices those will have consequences. If the PCs fail to gang up on targets and kill them then they'll have low hit points later on, right? If they fail to avoid traps, likewise they will have too few HS later. Its not like decisions mean nothing. There's no reason such a game can't make you 'earn' things either. It isn't like the game is scripted out on rails and the magic choochoo wisks you along to the end, that's not how it works. In fact if you study [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s posts you'll quickly see that he doesn't script out ANYTHING ahead of time, he called it 'no myth', there's no specific story, the whole idea is to invent it as you go, so the players decide what sorts of things they want to do, either explicitly in some cases "we're entering the mausoleum" or implicitly in some cases "we stock up on silver tipped arrows and enter the Howling Forest". Depending on just how far you're dialing into player authority the players may even be making up the Mausoleum or the Howling Forest on the spot. You can be sure that Pemerton will have undead in the former and lycanthropes in the latter (or he may throw the party a twist if he wants, maybe the elf ranger hates orcs and he decides they've holed up in the Mausoleum, surprise!).
 

Or was this just another hyperbolic attack on 3X from a disgruntled 4e fan?


Rhetorical question: Does anyone still think that this sort of thing will lead to constructive change in how people post? Do you actually think this sort of calling out will somehow make this place better?

Here's a note for you - it won't. It doesn't. It increases acrimony, and that's about it. It doesn't make people shut up. It doesn't make them change their ways. It does make them think you, personally, are an enemy, and a dismissive jerk, such that they'll only treat you and your points with less respect than they already do. Which is at least a symmetry, I suppose, 'cause you're not showing them a whole lot of respect either.

Next time someone seems to be hyperbolic, or edition warring, report the post and move on. Let it drop. Ignore them (we have an Ignore List function that can help with this). Don't feed the troll. Call it what you will - but don't engage in this kind of personal, ad hominem nonsense, please.

That goes for everyone, really, not just tim here.

Thanks, all, for your time and attention.
 

When a DM devises adventures he most certainly devises them with some idea in mind of what level of PCs will be adventuring in them.
I don't think that's true, or at least I think that's overstated.

I know I generally make monsters and NPCs without knowing exactly what level the PCs will be when they come into play, what circumstances they will appear in, or what will happen when they do. And I'm definitely not running a sandbox.

This is an inherently improvisational format after all. Frankly, I think the less I consider what the PC's level or abilities are relative to the challenges they face, the better I get at DMing. Trying to get rid of any remnants of that notion is actually a specific goal for me in my next campaign prep.
 

Well, the players had points they earned for leveling and then spent willy nilly, flavour text aside.

Personally the issue was "specialized" skill spend made a mockery of challenges by 3-5 level as "optimizing" destroyed any valuable (from an interaction stance) contribution.

I know what all those words mean individually but put together like that they make literally no sense.
 


Rhetorical question: Does anyone still think that this sort of thing will lead to constructive change in how people post? Do you actually think this sort of calling out will somehow make this place better?

Here's a note for you - it won't. It doesn't. It increases acrimony, and that's about it. It doesn't make people shut up. It doesn't make them change their ways. It does make them think you, personally, are an enemy, and a dismissive jerk, such that they'll only treat you and your points with less respect than they already do. Which is at least a symmetry, I suppose, 'cause you're not showing them a whole lot of respect either.

Next time someone seems to be hyperbolic, or edition warring, report the post and move on. Let it drop. Ignore them (we have an Ignore List function that can help with this). Don't feed the troll. Call it what you will - but don't engage in this kind of personal, ad hominem nonsense, please.

That goes for everyone, really, not just tim here.

Thanks, all, for your time and attention.

I've never been able to figure out how that ignore function works. I truly wish I did. It would make my browsing much less annoying.
 

I know what all those words mean individually but put together like that they make literally no sense.

OK, I'll try again.

Point spending creates divergent ranges. By 5th level optimization made skill checks simple or impossible: the difference between high and low spread was so high. Hence, point spends create unbalanced play.

(shoud have said "value" there, not "valuable")
 

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