d20 Hatred near you?

[SSquirrel]

Is it? I remember times when the situation was worse than this. Like 1996, when rpg's just ablut disappeared as a hobby*. Now there's Internet, and small game companies can have a good and thorough prescence on par with the largest publishers. And if they can handle it, they can sell directly to the customer.

Sure, their product don't sit on the shelves, but haven't that almost always been the case? D&D's been dominating the market as long as I can remember (back to 1982).

And when I look at what's coming out, I see a lot of creativity and offerings from non-d20 companies (as well as new editions). Just look at what is talked about on the net (some might be d20/OGL, please correct me if that is the case):

*snip*

Yeah gaming was pretty dead circa 96 if you weren't buying RIFTS or a White Wolf product it seemed like. I remember how for years the only place I could ever find gaming books was at Waldenbooks in Cincy OH and it would pretty much ONLY have D&D, even tho this was the late 80s and there was TONS of stuff out there.

Heck that list is pretty good and it doesn't even consider lines that have been ongoing for years that aren't releasing a new version like HERO (last year it did) or RIFTS. You constantly see more RIFTS books coming out and who knows when Simbieda will stop the line. Probably never as there is still a LOT of the world to develop. I know Palladium claims RIFTS to be the second biggest line of product after D&D...gamingreport.com may back that up.

I think the pdf market is only going to be getting bigger as time goes on (obviously) and the companies that aren't that succesful with on the shelf products will likely turn to direct pdf and rpgnow style sales and make more money as they have a lot less cost. Prices are cheaper to, but then again you don't have to pay for printing it out either, the user does. If they print it even. Personally, I will only be too glad when companies that have done well selling bad d20 products go away or at least retreat online where people fit into 1 of (usually) 2 models if they are inclined to purchase pdfs at all:

1)Buy lots of pdfs b/c hey its cheap and while some might suck chances are at least a couple will be good. This buyer will also likely remember the folks whose products blew and not buy from them anymore.

2)A bit more cautious, more reaearch will be done and if a review SOMEWHERE can't be found it won't be bought. Some of these purchases will be backups to products they already own (Arcana Unearthed is a good example here) so they always have the basics on, say, their laptop. This user seems like the kind who would not only remember who had a bad product, buy they would make sure to submit a review of it giving it a thumbs down to at least 1 site.

Both users will allow those retreating companies to still make some money in the short term, but obviously user #1 will be spending more money overall. User #2 will be the one who helps make sure that the bad guys go out of business if they can't produce a quality product. This is pretty much as it should be really.

Hagen

 

[SSquirrel]

Sorting Ken Hite's info out from his report (link above by someone else) provides the following which would account for about 96% of the total...which allows for a total margin of erorr of about 5% which is fair. This also assumes that the 3 companies with 1+% each total to 4%.

WotC 43%
D&D 18%
Star Wars 10%-
d20 Modern 9%(?)
Other 6%
White Wolf 19%
Vampire (?)
Sword & Sorcery (?)
Werewolf (?) (Vampire above S&S above Werewolf above everything else)
Palladium 7%
RIFTS (?)
Mongoose 5%+
d20/OGL 5%+
AEG 3%
Fantasy Flight 2%(?)
GURPS/HERO 2% each(?)
FanPro/Kenzer/Decipher 1%+ each
Eden/Green Ronin/Guardians of Order 1% each

Things with (?) are unknowns and for FF and GURPS/HERO I extrapolated their numbers based on being just behind AEG and having nearly the same sales.

So this would indicate that d20 makes up 58-64% (very roughly) of the RPG market currently. I wonder what we would find if we compared D&D circa 1996 with all other game companies. Again in 2001. Naturally prior to 2001 you would have to just stick D&D in place of d20.

Enjoy!

Hagen

 

[Maggan]

The hate for d20 and my responses

Heck that list is pretty good and it doesn't even consider lines that have been ongoing for years that aren't releasing a new version like HERO (last year it did) or RIFTS.

That's a very good point. So even more product lines are out there that are not d20.

The reason I compiled the list was the fact that I got into a lot of discussions where people claimed that all that was produced was d20 and that d20 was killing creativity.

After I repeatedly asked for some sort of data to back that up, and never getting any data, I compiled the list.

I also did a list as a response to the accusation that "WotC is evil because d20 destroys old properties like Macho Women With Guns, Deadlands and Judge Dredd. And Call of Cthulhu. And Conan".

To which I now reply:

GURPS Castle Falkenstein
GURPS Traveller
In Nomine (english version)
GURPS In Nomine
GURPS Illuminati
In Nomine Anime
GURPS Deadlands
GURPS Cthulhupunk
GURPS Conan
GURPS Bunnies&Burrows
GURPS Conspiracy X
GURPS Mage: The Ascension
GURPS Vampire: The Masquerade

The number of games that's been GURPS:ified is larger than the amount of games that's been d20:fied.

Why do I pick on GURPS? Because in the discussions SJ Games were heralded as the anti-WotC, the good guys who never did anything wrong. Only WotC would be so evil as to do an adaption of, say Call of Cthulhu, for another system. It turns out the d20-critics were wrong.

There is one Cthulhu-adaption in there, and in the list of new games there is another one. And there is De Profundis.

Yet these game are not accused of destroying Call of Cthulhu. They are not decried as the anti-messias of roleplaying because they don't use BRP as the basic engine.

But d20 is.

Why?

Because the critics most often don't look at what's being done with the games or the supplements. They see the "d20" logo and tell themselves "this is bad because it's d20. I will never read this, that's how bad it is!"

Yep, "I will not read this, I know it's crap". I've been confronted with that line of reasoning many times when it comes to WotC, D&D and d20. And White Wolf and WoD as well.

And when I ask for data to back up the ideas that d20 is destroying the market and creativity, I never get any. Not once have I got any hard data to back up the notion that d20 has destroyed the market for non-d20 games, or that it has stifled creativity within the hobby.

So if anyone's got any data that'll prove me wrong, bring it on!*

Maggan

*Of course my data is not conclusive or anything, but it's more data than any d20-critic has ever been able to produce.

(PS. And yes, I come across as bitter because on the boards I frequent there are vocal anti-d20 people who continously blame d20 and WotC for everything bad in the hobby without having anything to back that up with. So I've had my share of discussions about this. In my opinion WotC is not a benevolent santa claus, but they aint the ant-christ either. If they are to be blamed for something, it'd better be something they really are guilty of, and not trumped up charges that can easily be disproven. DS)

 

[SSquirrel]

(PS. And yes, I come across as bitter because on the boards I frequent there are vocal anti-d20 people who continously blame d20 and WotC for everything bad in the hobby without having anything to back that up with. So I've had my share of discussions about this. In my opinion WotC is not a benevolent santa claus, but they aint the ant-christ either. If they are to be blamed for something, it'd better be something they really are guilty of, and not trumped up charges that can easily be disproven. DS)

All good points and I'm sure we could all add to those lists. funny thing about Cthulhupunk was that we played a very cthulhupunk style CoC NOW in 94-97 before CthulhuPunk was even released. Was a ton of fun too.


On this last part, what you should do is tell those people that </sarcasm> "It isn't d20 that is the Antichrist, it's Pokemon cuz everyone KNOWS Pikachu is the devil!" *grin*

Hagen
</sarcasm....mostly>

 

[d4]

Oddly enough, PP's crappy IK RPG schedule is a symptom of their unexpected success ... in wargames. They put out a fun wargame "Warmachine" based on their IK world and had the wisdom to not make the game "d20" compatable, but wholely different mechanics that were more appropriate to the wargame genre.

very wise, considering they would be in violation of the d20 System Trademark License if they had produced a d20-based miniatures game.

 

[Garlak]

Every style of music that became popular as been imitated by people who want to make a quick buck.

Same thing happenned with D20, no surprise there.

Problem is people making crappy products, but those existed before D20.

 

[Sir Elton]

Greetings!


Another player, in trying to play a pacifist monk, had the base rules work against him. (We played 3.0, not 3.5 and I don't know if that would have made a difference.) He wanted to do subdual damage not to kill the enemies, instead of "real" hit point damage. I think, by the rules, I could have penalized him in several places, such as his need to declare subdual damage for every attack, as well as potentially having some penalties for attacking in a non lethal way. I didn't do that, I wanted him to have fun. I am not sure the rules support what I did, though. Yes, it is my perogative to change what I want. Every time I have to change the rules, it tells me the d20 rules are not for me.

edg

Just remember, though, all rules in a game like D&D are guidelines. So if you are complaining that you have to change the rules all the time, then it looks like you want a perfect system for your style without the work. If you want that, you might as well live your life without playing any RPGs.

The whole idea behind D&D and other Roleplaying games is to make sure that the players are having fun. The rules are there to help you adjudicate the game, but the number 0 rule is that the DM trumps the rules. Not vice versa.

You were playing the game very well in the above example. It looks to me that you couldn't see that past your displeasure, unfortunately. It's not the rules that make the Game good nor bad. It's how it's played. You are a very good DM, judging from the above example. It's too bad that you couldn't recognize that you were playing D&D right all along.

Do you get my point?

 

[evildmguy]

Just remember, though, all rules in a game like D&D are guidelines. So if you are complaining that you have to change the rules all the time, then it looks like you want a perfect system for your style without the work. If you want that, you might as well live your life without playing any RPGs.

The whole idea behind D&D and other Roleplaying games is to make sure that the players are having fun. The rules are there to help you adjudicate the game, but the number 0 rule is that the DM trumps the rules. Not vice versa.

You were playing the game very well in the above example. It looks to me that you couldn't see that past your displeasure, unfortunately. It's not the rules that make the Game good nor bad. It's how it's played. You are a very good DM, judging from the above example. It's too bad that you couldn't recognize that you were playing D&D right all along.

Do you get my point?

Thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it! The group did have fun, and the look on the player's face when I jokingly said he had done real damage was priceless! I think the game went well and the players had fun, and in the end, that's all that matters to me.

I haven't chimed in recently because talk on here has gone from a personal discussion of what people like, imo, to an analysis of the market. I am not interested in that. I stated my opinion, based on playing d20 games, and that was it.

I also find it very difficult to completely explain where I am coming from and where I am going with RPGs. I will try again, but I am sure I won't be able to as well as I would like.

I love RPing. To me, RPing is a communal story. I lay out the basis of it and the players, being players, do something I didn't expect and take the story in a different way. I try and go with the flow of the players as well as tell an interesting story.

What I look for in an RPG is rules, in the base system, that help me tell my story. If an RPG can't help me tell my story as it is written, I end up either modifying it or finding a new system.

d20 isn't that system for me.

For example, I loved the show Firefly. One of the episodes (Out of Gas) dealt with how the captain was wounded pretty bad and was struggling to fix the ship so he would live. That was a great and dramatic episode and I think it is a good example of what I would like to see my RPG do for me.

d20 cannot do that. DND cannot do that. d20 Modern can't do that! Anything dealing with hit points, that I have seen, cannot do that. I have yet to see a system that accounts for levels of damage within a hit point system. Now, d20 or DND, might be able to do that if it is "patched" but the core rules cannot do it. Is this bad? Nope. Not at all. I am merely saying that, for me, I have now found something that DND can't do but it is something that I want the possibility of in my games. So, I don't use it anymore.

One thing that d20 does well, though, is to allow those people who know d20 (DND) to play other genres without having to learn a new rule system. I think that is great for the casual players who don't have time to learn a new system. It is also great when my old group gets together and we want to play. Rather than teach a new system, we are able to play many different things and everyone knows about 80% of the rules.

However, for an ongoing campaign, I personally don't prefer it.

d20 has its place. It does some things very well. I am sure I will still buy things for it, if nothing else for the good read, but I won't use it for my own campaigns. Doesn't invalidate it for anyone else. My own cardinal rule is to make sure that the group is having fun!

Have a good one! Good discussion! Thanks for the reply!

edg

 

[wingsandsword]

Heck that list is pretty good and it doesn't even consider lines that have been ongoing for years that aren't releasing a new version like HERO (last year it did) or RIFTS. You constantly see more RIFTS books coming out and who knows when Simbieda will stop the line. Probably never as there is still a LOT of the world to develop. I know Palladium claims RIFTS to be the second biggest line of product after D&D...gamingreport.com may back that up.

I really, really doubt that Palladium is the #2 company in the industry, or even the #2 product line (I would imagine that honor would go to Vampire or Star Wars). The #2 company honor almost certainly goes to White Wolf. When I go to a mainstream, mass-market bookstore (not just chain stores, but those too), I see WotC books, White Wolf books, and maybe on rare occasion a few books by AEG (Spycraft), or Decipher (Lord of the Rings), but I never, ever see anything by Palladium outside of a FLGS.

Palladium keeps churning out books, but their obviously cheap production values (crappy art, poor layout, lousy binding) keeps costs down, and their relatively small distribution means they can probably have small print runs. Quantity of books produced made does not make a game company prosperous. WEG's d6 Star Wars & AEG's Dead Lands are examples of small gaming companies with prolific and successful output of books, but that didn't make them big-time.

Now, Palladium is a iconic example of Company-scale Irrational d20 Hatred. They have been hostile and condescending to any fan requests for a d20/OGL version of their product (even a dual-statting). I remember seeing one Sembieda rant where he said that d20 would be just a "flash in the pan" and he predicted it would ruin WotC and the rest of the industry would collapse leaving them as the most popular and dominant game company. Hogwash. (I could rant about how outdated, inflexible, horribly balanced & incomprehensible the Palladium system is, but I'm sure there are lots of rants like that on the net and they could revitalize their business with an OGL/d20 sideline: insert one here).

Their d20 Hatred reaches so deep they've sent Cease & Desist's to some of their most dedicated fans for merely belonging to a mailing list discussing d20 conversions of their products (which lead to a few fans becoming ex-fans and refusing to buy further products from them). Of course, all this lead to was starting another list and discussing the same things, but changing the names around and making a "generic" Post-Apocalyptic Psionic/Magic/Sci-Fi d20 setting (which they promptly insert back all the Rifts references off-list at home).

Just about every other gaming company has dabbled it's feet in the d20/OGL water at some time, including those with their own well-known house systems. White Wolf's got it's Sword & Sorcery label, SJG did the Munchin's Guides, AEG's got Spycraft.

 

[Von Ether]

very wise, considering they would be in violation of the d20 System Trademark License if they had produced a d20-based miniatures game.

Well there is that too.

I meant it more from the stance that knew if they wanted a bigger market for the wargame it had to have rules that are more like a wargame, not a RPG.

Now for my own unconfirmed rumors, that d02 "disdain" reaches even into the heart of WotC and Hasbro, who have been only keep the brand name in an effort to find a way to get a "DnD" minis game to take off.

The concept is simple. Make a minis game, take on Games Workshop, then just keep the shelves stocked with minis product like a "normal game". i.e., just like Hasbro does with it's board games and the DnD computer games, repackage, remarket, rinse, lather, repeat.

Then they just keep reprinting and restocking the rpg books for the "completeist" and let the 3rd party publishers handle anything that takes real development time.

Oh course I can't remember where I got this and who told me, it must have all been a dream.