D&D 4E d20 Modern 4E - I want it!

No, but we do need a setting for the game rules. After all, that's how D&D was promoted and rose to the success it now has been ... well, up to 3rd Edition.

Later on we can add new settings for people who want something different.

Personally, I'd start with Dark*Matter.

Dark*Matter is a good choice. I found the d20 Modern book quite interesting and it went along the lines of what I had envisioned for a d20 Modern campaign. I prefer it over Urban Arcana.

You're also probably right that we need a setting in the first place. A game without a defined setting will always have it more difficult. You want the game to be supported, and support in a vacuum is harder. You can give rule options for various campaigns, times and settings, but this will only attract those that still need one. If you give players an interesting setting, they will want books on campaign details, new adventures and so on... And the existence of those will attract new players, too.
 

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hong

WotC's bitch
Minis might actually be a problem with modern. You can handwave D&D characters in dungeons and winding streets always being in close quarters combat, but a sniper rifle can ding you from 1 km away.
 

Minis might actually be a problem with modern. You can handwave D&D characters in dungeons and winding streets always being in close quarters combat, but a sniper rifle can ding you from 1 km away.

Indeed. That's the greatest weakness of using 4E concepts for d20 Modern. I suggest that _maybe_ d20 Modern shouldn't rely that much on the game board, how much fun this is.

Unless you want to model the 1km Sniper entirely different from a "monster" - maybe as a hazard? "If a character begins his turns in the field, or enters it, he will take one attack"... Might work, might not... it's pretty specific.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
OTOH, it's not really a new problem. 3E d20M solves it by drastically curtailing the ranges of all guns, which IIRC generated a bit of a ruckus at the time.
 

I'd also just like to add that minions aka mooks are very suitable for a cinematic-style game. I really think adapting the 4E rules, minus minis, could lead to such a great fun "action movie"-type game that WotC could market in a way none of these other companies could.

Greg K - I'm completely unable to process the fact that you're aware of other d20 games, yet you think d20 Modern is relatively good at, well, anything. I really don't think it is. It's terrible at cinematic-style games, it's godawful at simulationism (whilst running nearly as slowly as GURPS for god's sake), it doesn't even work particularly well for supernatural/modern crossover-type games. Every single genre I can think of either has a specific or generic d20 game that works significantly better for it than d20 Modern.

At least stealing the 4E schtick and using it to create game where the players where in various exciting, unlikely action-movie type scenarios (with a very "action movie"-ish implied setting)

Count Popeula - Ugh, that'd be a good reason to avoid d20 Modern. Urbana Arcana was a toothless, edge-less setting with zero depth and pretty much nothing beyond the very basic "D&D monsters in the modern day!" setting. I mean, jeez, I had to pay for a whole book to get a one-line concept of a setting?

I hope they go for something more "action movie" and less "sub-Buffy".
 

DarkKestral

First Post
OTOH, it's not really a new problem. 3E d20M solves it by drastically curtailing the ranges of all guns, which IIRC generated a bit of a ruckus at the time.

I dunno how far they actually "curtailed" them, if you look at the reality. Those ranges are actually range increments, so it's more about "effectiveness" and shot difficulty rather than pure maximum killing range, as many rifles have a killing range which is greater than the range with which it is possible to make what should be a center of body shot after controllable factors are accounted for ensure a kill due to simple spread. (In other words, the gun has a range after which the possible spread is larger than the actual target itself, so any shot taken, no matter how well-targeted, is unreliable and has a luck factor associated with hitting the target which cannot be controlled for.) The full range in d20 Modern, as I recall is 10x the range increment, so a rifle with a 100 m RI has a maximum in-game effective range of 1 km, but a range of 100 m with which it can be fired without penalty. That seems to jibe well with current reality; the bulk of long-range shots fired from rifles are well within 1 km, and the general maximum outside of special cases is supposedly around 900 m. Specialist target shooting rifles can get significantly better ranges, but they are typically not meant to be used in combat and are heavily modified so that it is better to approximate them via the gadget system and should be treated like the one-offs they are.

So in other words, the "without penalty" is probably the operative term here; if we keep the max ranges the same, it is mostly where the penalties are that matters. There are two main factors which should influence range penalties: the ability of melee characters to close on a target and the effective size of the arena. Smaller battles where melee is desired should are more likely if the rules tend towards smaller range increments with harsher range penalties, and larger battles where ranged is king are more likely if the reverse is true, assuming damage per round from each is approximately equal. This is ultimately a question of game style. I'd personally favor a more ranged-friendly style, as compared to say D&D, but that's just personal preference.

Either way, I agree with M_R: it's best handled as a hazard or a trap. If the players can't fire back, then there's no point to a sniper being statted as a "character", as there's nothing the PCs can do about it except keep out of the line of fire. So I don't mind short ranges, as long as it's made immediately clear that there's a difference between maximum effective range in combat and maximum effective range under optimal circumstances, and how to translate between them. (In essence, detailing the Range Increment system and how it works, and what factors mitigate those penalties, which Modern already does to a degree, though it's obviously not something a lot of people immediately "get.")

However, if the players can effectively do something about it, though it would make the "battlemat" unreasonably large, then it should be treated somewhat differently, but still, at heart it should be treated primarily as being a case of a certain area being under a hazard or trap condition which can be removed with an sufficiently damaging successful attack or series of attacks from a weapon. Certainly, that is a non-traditional method of disarming the trap, but it is one appropriate to the situation.
 

Nadaka

First Post
There are no rifles with a 100 m range increment. Its typically 80ft to 100ft, 150 with a scope, 200 with a scope and far shot.
 

Hawke

Explorer
If I were to begin my own conversion I'd start with a Ranged Defender and see what I can come up with a gun based at-will, encounter, daily, and utility powers. I figure you start with all characters martial power sourced and then do others (superhero stuff, psionic stuff, elemental stuff) as feat-multiclasses, maybe with free power choices. Power keywords will be more specific to weapon keywords (Automatic Ranged, Grenade, rocket?).

As with 4E's general theme, I'd drop the actual ranges of weapons down considerably to ensure there's stylistic fun involved but keep some sort of aim action (costs minor, move, attack, provokes attacks of opportunity, grants combat advantage, but does not take advantage of combat advantage) that would let you take far range shots with no penalty... just to allow some nicer long range and more realistic fun without allowing someone to do so easily within the fray of near combat.

I think the best thing to do to figure out the details would be to just write the whole thing up.
 


HeapThaumaturgist

First Post
Let's see if this attachment works.

At any rate, I've been toying with a 4E-inspired Modern conversion system for some time now. My group has been playing it on and off for several months. It started with some elements of SWSE and has grown from there.

There's quite a bit different from 4E, but probably of most interest is the last page, which has the character's powers.

Note that I have quite a few gear-based powers, specifically that some gear can grant access to a power. I modeled grenades in this way. Possession of the grenade gives access to the at-will power "Frag Grenade", which does a certain something as well as consuming one grenade item. No grenade item, no access to power.

The actual number of powers and the class associated is off, since this is a conversion of a conversion of a conversion and we were more interested in seeing how the powers played than making sure the power selection was correct.

The campaign is Star*Drive, the Externals War (old Alternity setting), and the character is a fire team heavy weapons specialist (Defender/Controller).

All of which is to say, I think a Modern game could and can be informed by 4E. I think we've found, as a group, that much of the design philosophy of 4E is just plain FUN. People like the powers, folks like the simplified play. Coming off a 2 year 3.5e campaign, we're a touch burnt out on the fantasy flavor, so this is something different that utilizes similar mechanics.



--fje
 

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