Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Some (very old) Q&A responses on nonlethal damage (that I had missed from before):
Nonlethal Damage:
Q: [How come two people can punch each other all day and not have a scratch under the current nonlethal rules? That makes no sense!]
A: OK, let me clear this up completely:
Two average joes, with no special skills or feats, can punch each other all day long. No-one is going to be knocked unconscious, and no-one is going to be seriously hurt. They may have some bruises, black eyes, and bloody noses, but nothing serious enough to warrant the actual loss of a hit point.
Realistic? Maybe, maybe not. (I tend to think it is--I've never seen anyone knocked out or seriously hurt in a fistfight, unless the fighters were experienced or using weapons.) It's certainly more realistic than the subdual system, in which average Joes will reliable knock each other unconscious after about three hits.
On the flip side, the all-or-nothing nature of this system models something we see in movies all the time--the ability to sneak up behind a guard, hit him on the head, and have him fall unconscious. It takes a couple feats to be able to do this reliably, but it works (it doesn't work with the subdual system if the target is higher than 1st or maybe 2nd level).
Hope that clears things up!
Q: [But that means three low level guys can gang up on one guy and never knock him out! Fix these rules!]
A: Three refugees (or accountants) trap a character in a back alley. They start kicking and punching him, apparently with the goal of knocking him unconscious. After 15 or 20 seconds, the character is not unconscious. The frustrated refugees (or accountants) start picking up bottles and two-by-fours. Now they're packing some punch, and the character, whose beating to this point was entirely superficial, starts taking some real injury.
What's wrong with this scenario? Nothing. It's realistic. It's the sort of thing we see in modern movies and fiction all the time. And it's exactly the result you get in d20 Modern.
Some people have called on us to "fix" these rules "before it's too late." We aren't going to, because they aren't broken. They work great in play, they require less bookkeeping than the subdual system, and they're more (yes, that's more) realistic.
If you'd like to use a different system in your home campaign, by all means do so. But recognize that you're doing so because of a difference in your taste, not because of a flaw in the game.
I, and the rest of the design team, stand by the assertion that this is a realistic, playable, and enjoyable system--and I think you'll agree when you give it a try. If it bothers you that two accountants can trade punches all day long with no real effect, I offer two points:
First, the game is not about amateur fisticuffs. If you need to simulate schoolyard scuffles, pick up a copy of Atlas Games' Lunch Money. You'll have a lot more fun. But if you're like most of us, the corner cases that are causing such a fuss on this thread will never come up in your game.
Second, remember that in the game, like in real life, people who actually want to harm one another have many options other than trading painful but generally harmless punches. They can pick up weapons. They can accept the standard -4 penalty for dealing normal damage. They can grapple. They can look for situational advantages. They can take a karate class.
If your idea of a fight is two people trading punches, with one of them falling unconscious after 18 or 24 seconds, this system isn't for you. If, on the other hand, you can see that in real life, the movies, comics, books, and every other milieu you might reasonably want to mimic in a modern roleplaying game, unarmed fights are somewhat more chaotic and require more creative approaches than simply trading punches, you'll probably find that d20 Modern's system serves your needs just fine!
I hope this answers any lingering questions. I certainly hope that, even if you aren't convinced, you can find some other aspect of d20 Modern of greater importance on which to base your decision to buy and enjoy the game.
Nonlethal Damage:
Q: [How come two people can punch each other all day and not have a scratch under the current nonlethal rules? That makes no sense!]
A: OK, let me clear this up completely:
Two average joes, with no special skills or feats, can punch each other all day long. No-one is going to be knocked unconscious, and no-one is going to be seriously hurt. They may have some bruises, black eyes, and bloody noses, but nothing serious enough to warrant the actual loss of a hit point.
Realistic? Maybe, maybe not. (I tend to think it is--I've never seen anyone knocked out or seriously hurt in a fistfight, unless the fighters were experienced or using weapons.) It's certainly more realistic than the subdual system, in which average Joes will reliable knock each other unconscious after about three hits.
On the flip side, the all-or-nothing nature of this system models something we see in movies all the time--the ability to sneak up behind a guard, hit him on the head, and have him fall unconscious. It takes a couple feats to be able to do this reliably, but it works (it doesn't work with the subdual system if the target is higher than 1st or maybe 2nd level).
Hope that clears things up!
Q: [But that means three low level guys can gang up on one guy and never knock him out! Fix these rules!]
A: Three refugees (or accountants) trap a character in a back alley. They start kicking and punching him, apparently with the goal of knocking him unconscious. After 15 or 20 seconds, the character is not unconscious. The frustrated refugees (or accountants) start picking up bottles and two-by-fours. Now they're packing some punch, and the character, whose beating to this point was entirely superficial, starts taking some real injury.
What's wrong with this scenario? Nothing. It's realistic. It's the sort of thing we see in modern movies and fiction all the time. And it's exactly the result you get in d20 Modern.
Some people have called on us to "fix" these rules "before it's too late." We aren't going to, because they aren't broken. They work great in play, they require less bookkeeping than the subdual system, and they're more (yes, that's more) realistic.
If you'd like to use a different system in your home campaign, by all means do so. But recognize that you're doing so because of a difference in your taste, not because of a flaw in the game.
I, and the rest of the design team, stand by the assertion that this is a realistic, playable, and enjoyable system--and I think you'll agree when you give it a try. If it bothers you that two accountants can trade punches all day long with no real effect, I offer two points:
First, the game is not about amateur fisticuffs. If you need to simulate schoolyard scuffles, pick up a copy of Atlas Games' Lunch Money. You'll have a lot more fun. But if you're like most of us, the corner cases that are causing such a fuss on this thread will never come up in your game.
Second, remember that in the game, like in real life, people who actually want to harm one another have many options other than trading painful but generally harmless punches. They can pick up weapons. They can accept the standard -4 penalty for dealing normal damage. They can grapple. They can look for situational advantages. They can take a karate class.
If your idea of a fight is two people trading punches, with one of them falling unconscious after 18 or 24 seconds, this system isn't for you. If, on the other hand, you can see that in real life, the movies, comics, books, and every other milieu you might reasonably want to mimic in a modern roleplaying game, unarmed fights are somewhat more chaotic and require more creative approaches than simply trading punches, you'll probably find that d20 Modern's system serves your needs just fine!
I hope this answers any lingering questions. I certainly hope that, even if you aren't convinced, you can find some other aspect of d20 Modern of greater importance on which to base your decision to buy and enjoy the game.
