D20 Modern in 2007?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think D20 Modern could have used an adventure path from the start -- especially one linking it to Urban Arcana.

I don't think Urban Arcana is a killer app. It'd be nice if it had a more defined city or something, but that still wouldn't make it a killer app. You'd have to get rid of the goofiness like kobolds in modern day cities wielding guns that normal people think are just short people to make it good - in other words, you'd need a different setting.

 

[eyebeams]

I don't think Urban Arcana is a killer app. It'd be nice if it had a more defined city or something, but that still wouldn't make it a killer app. You'd have to get rid of the goofiness like kobolds in modern day cities wielding guns that normal people think are just short people to make it good - in other words, you'd need a different setting.

Urban Arcana promoted a modernized D&D core story combined with themes that already contribute to popular modern fiction (like Harry Potter) and several successful RPGs. The other sample settings all sucked to various degrees, by being derivative (Buffy fans don't care about pseudo-Buffy -- they want the real thing) or unable to properly emulate the core material (the clones and hybrids thing). Dark*Matter might have worked as well, but the subject matter is a bit dated now. But *millions* of people play dark elves in multiple games.

Another thing to consider is the death of traditional Western action cinema, which is a strong part of D20M's default assumptions. The rules really support the Arnold/Stallone style of heavy firepower and broadly drawn characters. The Matrix (and ulimately, its Asian film prececessors) basically changed action cinema into something that revolves around much more mobile, dynamic action setpieces. Movement and two-weapon rules ported from D&D and needing a feat for effective autofire just doesn't have that feel.

 

[Ranger REG]

Unfortunately, the implementation was modular in a way that I suppose many gamers like, but it just isn't sexy* in the way an immediate hook is. I have a feeling that if Urban Arcana had been released as a complete RPG it would have been a tremendous hit and no obstacle to third party concepts for other kinds of games.

I dunno. Not many people are excited about bringing D&D into their modern-day genre roleplaying. And only now I notice trickles of D&D fans curious about d20 Modern (as opposed to three years ago).

And their marketing plan is based on almost entirely on "If it sells...," unlike Mongoose who makes their plan for one of their lines on a monthly basis for a year. Say what you will of Mongoose, their product release is very aggressive.

So, how does Steve Jackson do it with his GURPS?

 

[eyebeams]

I dunno. Not many people are excited about bringing D&D into their modern-day genre roleplaying. And only now I notice trickles of D&D fans curious about d20 Modern (as opposed to three years ago).

Urban Arcana wasn't sold as "D&D Modern." It was sold as an expansion you had to pay for that had D&D critters and magic but no core story like D&D's.

And their marketing plan is based on almost entirely on "If it sells...," unlike Mongoose who makes their plan for one of their lines on a monthly basis for a year. Say what you will of Mongoose, their product release is very aggressive.

Everybody's plan is based on whether or not something sells well compared to its expenses. WotC needs more expected sales for a product to be worth their while than anybody else, so something that would be a good idea for Mongoose might not be great for WotC.

So, how does Steve Jackson do it with his GURPS?

GURPS' playstyle is biased toward realism with a twist (alt-history, gritty fantasy) or hard-ish SF. Not a lot of wuxia GURPS games that I know of.

 

[buzz]

I don't think Urban Arcana is a killer app.

I think it could have been.

My issue with the product was that it was really a setting toolkit (there's that word again), and not really a setting. It was presented as general sourcebook, but what it really needed was to be presented like FR or Eberron. "Here's the hook, here's what's happened so far, here's what's going on now, and here's how your PCs fit into the picture. Oh, and here's some badass crunch you can cut your teeth on."

 

[Shrindi]

things going out of print

Has anyone tried finding a new copy of he Menace Manual lately? I got one but it was "used - like new". I looked all over for it and came to realize that it must be out of print. And yes I did look online. That is how I got my copy. I don't know about anyone else, but I really didn't want to rely on Urban Arcana for *extra* bad guy fodder. Just give me a collection of bad guys that I can plug into my own setting.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

d20 Modern really is the: "Here's the toolkit, good luck, guys!" piece of the d20 system.

You'd be surprised what WotC will let a 3rd Party Publisher use. You could write a module or sourcebook, send it in, and get most of it, if not all of it, approved for sale, provided you don't reprint their original material.

Wizards has always had a problem with d20 modern-esque products. Like it was mentioned, there is no default campaign, and trying to make one, you still get the following:

Top Secret/007
World War-I/II Civil War/Etc, not even adding in Shadow
Modern Day: Mercs, anti-shadow stuff, etc
Post Apocalyptic: What was the apocalypse?
Cybertech: How much, how good is it, how prevalent?
Hard Sci-Fi: Whee, no space travel!
Space Opera: How far, how much?

Still, for them to try to scoop up, or even create flagship products for each, there's a massive investment of time and effort.

And once you produce a campaign setting, it needs support. That means dedicated writers, artists, editors, etc, for the setting. This means less people doing generic products.

Personally, I like d20 Modern.

 

[Vigilance]

So, how does Steve Jackson do it with his GURPS?

GURPs is as much of a toolkit as d20M. GURPs players just happen to see that as a feature. To people who bought d20 Modern, it seems to be seen as a bug.

I mean, after d20 Future there were people on all sorts of forums saying "now where's the FULL LENGTH Bughunters sourcebook".

The Modern Toolkit plus the Future Toolkit plus a brief campaign model wasn't enough.

Similarly, from a personal experience, when we released Blood and Relics at @ 50 pages, the #1 comment we got was "it's too short".

When we revised it for print, we doubled the size.

What do you think the #1 comment on the revised edition is?

Yep, "too short".

Basically d20 fans seem to have this expectation of MULTIPLE 300 page hardcover sourcebooks.

Im not sure what the answer is to that expectation, because it's not very realistic.

I mean, there's Urban Arcana, Dark Matter, Blood and Relics and Dawning Star out in print. So we have "modern high Fantasy", alien conspiracy, gothic/occult conspiracy and sci-fi and people are still saying "well it would do better if it had more settings in print".

Chuck

PS My apologies if I missed a printed setting, that was off the top of my head. If there are more settings out there, that just strengthens my argument. And of course this doesn't even count PDF.

 

[Qualidar]

GURPs is as much of a toolkit as d20M. GURPs players just happen to see that as a feature. To people who bought d20 Modern, it seems to be seen as a bug.

I mean, after d20 Future there were people on all sorts of forums saying "now where's the FULL LENGTH Bughunters sourcebook".

I'm not too familiar with GURPS, but don't they actually publish a lot of individual campaign books? That's always been my impression of them.

~Qualidar~

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

PS My apologies if I missed a printed setting, that was off the top of my head. If there are more settings out there, that just strengthens my argument. And of course this doesn't even count PDF.

No excuses!

I can't believe you forgot me!