D20 Modern in 2007?

[buzz]

...even WoD isn't a 'setting' it's more of a campaign model.

I don't think there is any question that WoD is a setting. Campaign books, faction guides, region splats, bestiaries, scenario books, novels, a failed TV series... that says "setting" to me.

 

[Vigilance]

Three words back at you:

Go.

LARP.

Yourself.

Please not that is only in jest. Not all WoD crazies are larpers, and not all larpers are WoD crazies. There is just a generous crossover between them. It's like southern inbreeding.

Back to the topic - even WoD isn't a 'setting' it's more of a campaign model. It's still the same old earth, just with people wearing tacky clothes and bad accents.

I'm wondering how many little twists it takes for me to believe it's a setting and not a model. For some reason, I'll buy Etherscope as a 'setting.'

So basically, it cant be set in the modern world and be a setting?

Totally disagree.

 

[Ranger REG]

GURPs is as much of a toolkit as d20M. GURPs players just happen to see that as a feature. To people who bought d20 Modern, it seems to be seen as a bug.

Are you telling me we attracting the wrong kind of fans?

Hmm. I'm inclined to agree. Hehehhe.

I mean, after d20 Future there were people on all sorts of forums saying "now where's the FULL LENGTH Bughunters sourcebook".

And not enough demanding Star*Drive? *sniffles*

The Modern Toolkit plus the Future Toolkit plus a brief campaign model wasn't enough.

Similarly, from a personal experience, when we released Blood and Relics at @ 50 pages, the #1 comment we got was "it's too short".

When we revised it for print, we doubled the size.

What do you think the #1 comment on the revised edition is?

Yep, "too short".

Basically d20 fans seem to have this expectation of MULTIPLE 300 page hardcover sourcebooks.

Or continued support, the way WotC is promoting Eberron (and once in a blue moon, Forgotten Realms).

Im not sure what the answer is to that expectation, because it's not very realistic.

Well, they may be exaggerating but yeah, we could use some form of continuing support from WotC. If you're gonna offer Dark*Matter, at least have a one-year plan's worth of support product release.

At the moment the unrealistic fans just want anything, including the speculative d20 Spectaculars to show that d20 Modern is alive.

 

[jezter6]

I dunno, I think there are a number of things that change it from a campaign 'model' (IMHO) and a full blown setting.

When I see setting, the first thing I think of is MAP. Well, modern HAS a map, and it's not in the rulebook. Not that I want a world map in the book, I already have a map.

The second thing I think of is a rich history and backstory. While the world around us DOES have this rich history, it's a history I already know. Changing history a little doesn't cut it for me in that regard.

So then it has to come down to the twists:
UA is just fantasy races/low magic - with guns. Not a setting.
YotZ (while awesome) is same Earth, with some zombies. Neat and all - but doesn't fit me for a 'setting.'
B&R (also awesome) is same earth, with some hidden demonic influences. Awesome as can be - but is still our standard Earth with only a little change.
Dawning Star - now that is a setting. It's new to me (as in, I don't already live in the world it's set in). It has a rich background and flavor. I'm sure it has maps somewhere, and if not, will be forthcoming.
Etherscope - ok, that's basically just Victorian Earth. But then they changed up the races. Then it's not really just Victorian, there's some neat steampunk stuff in it. Oh, then there's the Etherspace (which is new and different). It barely crosses the line into setting for me, but I wouldn't cry if it wasn't a setting.

I think it's the number of different twists that make it so. Maybe - 3 big twists and it's suddenly a setting? Hard to put a number on it, but it certainly make sure that big changes are made from your standard Earth feel.

 

[Vigilance]

Are you telling me we attracting the wrong kind of fans?

Hmm. I'm inclined to agree. Hehehhe.

Don't put words in my mouth

Seriously though, I'm a "customer is always right" kind of guy. I won't stand up and tell people to want something they don't want. I was just pointing out what I have witnessed. As a GURPs-head (and a Hero guru before that) I ran into folks all the time proclaiming its tool-kit angle as an advantage over D&D.

These days I run into people who bought d20M and dislike it because there isn't enough handholding.

I make no value judgement on whose right, but the two games appear to have attracted a different set of customers with different expectations and acting like it isn't so doesn't help anyone.

And not enough demanding Star*Drive? *sniffles*

Actually, that too. And Star Frontiers. That's a further illustration of the phenomenon I'm talking about. I read threads asking for a full-fledged hardcover devoted to ALL the settings in d20F.

If I cared enough about d20 Past I'd probably find the same sorts of threads about the campaign models there too.

Or continued support, the way WotC is promoting Eberron (and once in a blue moon, Forgotten Realms).

Well... at RPGO we've stuck our toe in the water supporting Blood and Relics a time or two. Heck, last year we did a Darwin's World adventure and a Blood and Relics adventure for Gen Con.

But the truth is, support for B&Relics on the level we support Darwin's World isn't justified imo (last I checked we still have copies of the print run that we did um... a year ago? not an ideal situation) and its the same reason why I wouldn't recommend full-fledged support of Dark Matter were I running WOTC.

Modern basically comes built-in with "Second Edition Syndrome": the market is fragmented into so many settings none of them can be supported and anyone who tried would lose money.

Only settings that are very different from the modern world seem to have jumped that ramp thus far.

 

[buzz]

I dunno, I think there are a number of things that change it from a campaign 'model' (IMHO) and a full blown setting.

If the product says, "This is the way things are," it's a setting.

If the product says, "This is the way things could be," it's a campaign model.

UrA was a model because all it did was present a hook (Shadow), and then gave you a bunch of building blocks. It never painted a complete picture or said definitively that X was true and Y wasn't.

WoD is a setting because it paints a very specific world, with very specific figures of note, a definitive timeline, and concrete answers as to which way the wind blows, IYKWIM. Just like FR, or Eberron.

For the record, I've never played and WoD games, nor do I own any product. Just giving it as a very relevant example.

 

[Vigilance]

I think it's the number of different twists that make it so. Maybe - 3 big twists and it's suddenly a setting? Hard to put a number on it, but it certainly make sure that big changes are made from your standard Earth feel.

The problem with the Modern world though, is that doing something you'd feel "qualified" as a setting would be tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot by marrying a bunch of sourcebooks together in a book that will only be bought by those interested in the meta-story of the setting, regardless of how much the individual rules components would appeal to them.

I mean, I *could* have written a book about Aliens invading Earth, prompting the US Government to take highly qualified hand to hand combatants and give them alien-designed cybernetics, turning them into supersoldiers to fight back the rampaging hordes.

Or I could do what I did: write a martial arts sourcebook, a cybernetics sourcebook and super agent sourcebook.

 

[jezter6]

The problem with the Modern world though, is that doing something you'd feel "qualified" as a setting would be tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot by marrying a bunch of sourcebooks together in a book that will only be bought by those interested in the meta-story of the setting, regardless of how much the individual rules components would appeal to them.

I mean, I *could* have written a book about Aliens invading Earth, prompting the US Government to take highly qualified hand to hand combatants and give them alien-designed cybernetics, turning them into supersoldiers to fight back the rampaging hordes.

Or I could do what I did: write a martial arts sourcebook, a cybernetics sourcebook and super agent sourcebook.

Putting words into my mouth now.

I never said I WANTED a setting. I'm just describing what a setting is to me. I'm a picky gamer.

 

[jezter6]

These days I run into people who bought d20M and dislike it because there isn't enough handholding.

I saw the very same thing in a Castle Ravenloft thread today. Those of us who've gamed more than say 10+ years differ in thinking. The poster said that d20 basically created a new group of gamers that need handfed every little bit of setting/rules/etc. I don't disagree.

But the truth is, support for B&Relics on the level we support Darwin's World isn't justified imo (last I checked we still have copies of the print run that we did um... a year ago? not an ideal situation) and its the same reason why I wouldn't recommend full-fledged support of Dark Matter were I running WOTC.

Vig, you know where to find me. I'll give you my address and you can feel free to send out any of those back stock to me. I will never turn down free books from RPGO...unless you got license to do Pokemon d20...then no, you can keep it.

 

[Bretbo]

D20 Modern has settings. Just not 300 page hardcovers.

I sometimes wonder if this is the problem with WOTC Modern books. Just fliping through them they seem small and, as a result, maybe folks think they are somewhat incomplete. This may be incorrect, but its' about perception.

After recently fliping through a Modern book I though, "thats it...there has to be more than this." I haven't read through the book so that impression is most likely wrong, but that was my first impression; first impressions being important when folks choose between a Modern book and several other flashy titles on the selves or the other books listed in the same category on the website store.

Am I on any kind of track here or have I derailed? :\