d20 Modern: Melee or Ranged?

[zdanboy]

Hello!
To get to the point, I am starting a d20 Modern campaign soon, and I need some advice on creating a character....

I will be the main "fighting" man in the group...and my dillema is: should I focus on ranged or melee combat? I dunno what works out better in d20 Modern...any of you that have played d20 Modern yet, could you help me?....of course any help is appreciated...

Originally I wanted to to go the Strong Hero->Soldier route...focusing on two weapon fighting with 2 kukri.....

But I also considered a Fast Hero->Gunslinger route.....

So which one should I pick? Or a completely diffrent one???

Any this is not a pure munchkin question....I just want to create a char that is competent in combat.....

 

[Crothian]

Guns are the most powerful in d20 Modern. However, I think a melee specialist who was good at disarming weapons would be really cool.

 

[Mistwell]

It's a tough call, like all other d20 games. Guns put you at a disadvantage if your opponants close with you, particularly if you get your back up against a wall. They can also be tricky if your allies often get between you and your opponant. And, they are both costly and require reloading and a supply of ammunition.

On the other hand, they do a great deal of damage, most pistols can be hidden, and you could use a pistol in each hand. Guns also make semi-decent melee weapons in a pinch (particularly a long gun), even if you are out of bullets. If you go the gun route, you obviously should decide on the long gun versus pistol route.

If you are going to go the melee weapon route, you need to decide if it is going to be a martial arts character, a brawler, or a weapon user. Each has its advantages and its disadvantages. People keep bagging on the brawler route, since it can be difficult to knock an opponant out in one punch (which is what is required), however I can see a very effective character being a brawler, if done carefully (and particularly at the low to medium levels, when opponants have a poor fortitude save). However, I believe you have more options open to you by going the martial arts or melee weapon route.

Hope this helps more than it confuses...

 

[DM_Matt]

It's a tough call, like all other d20 games. Guns put you at a disadvantage if your opponants close with you, particularly if you get your back up against a wall. They can also be tricky if your allies often get between you and your opponant. And, they are both costly and require reloading and a supply of ammunition.

On the other hand, they do a great deal of damage, most pistols can be hidden, and you could use a pistol in each hand. Guns also make semi-decent melee weapons in a pinch (particularly a long gun), even if you are out of bullets. If you go the gun route, you obviously should decide on the long gun versus pistol route.

If you are going to go the melee weapon route, you need to decide if it is going to be a martial arts character, a brawler, or a weapon user. Each has its advantages and its disadvantages. People keep bagging on the brawler route, since it can be difficult to knock an opponant out in one punch (which is what is required), however I can see a very effective character being a brawler, if done carefully (and particularly at the low to medium levels, when opponants have a poor fortitude save). However, I believe you have more options open to you by going the martial arts or melee weapon route.

Hope this helps more than it confuses...

The brawler becomes MUCH more powerful if you use brass knuckles. Thy are cheap, can be made mastercraft/magical, make you fists do perm dmg, and give them +1 to dmg.

Here is the map for the char that I made for a PBP game

Profession: Dilletante for the wealth bonus...starting wealth with a lucky roll = 15

L1: Strong Hero 1, melee smash Personal firearms prof, brawl...Bab/DMG w/16 str = +5, Attack = 1d6+6, or an additional +1 to +3 to both depending on if the DM rules that you can buy mastercraft items (+3 mastercraft brass knuckles are W14) Buy and undercover vest (also 14), and a silenced TEC-9 (to be cheap and concealable. If you are in a setting where you can carry guns around easily, buy yourself an M16 or something else big and powerful). You can buy derringers and pathfinders, tiny (thus very concealable gns) for no wealth loss. You should be able to hit at say, +3 (with 14 dex, which should be your second-highest score).
L2: Strong Hero 2. This is not a very intersting level. Pick up Knockout Punch. You will almost always threaten a knockout (and guaruntee a daze) if you get the jump on an opponent, and at this level their fot saves are going to suck.
L3: Fast Hero 1, Light armor Proficiency, Evasion. You now have a 20 AC to complement your impressive melee AND ranged power.
L4-5 Soldier 1-2. Take Weapon Focus And Spec in unarmed strike. Your fists are now +8 to hit and do 1d6+8 + 1-3 mastercraft
L6: Soldier 3 ...get +1 to attack, defense and will saves...two feats...From here you can go wherever you want. You can take the 2 Offensive/Defensive Combat Martial Arts feats (granting access to the Martial Artist AdvC), or can take Improved Initiative to help out your knockout punch and one of the MA feats OR can bring your gunmanship up to date with Advanced Firearms and Burst Fire.
L7+ You are quite flexible now. Perhaps you should combine the Soldier and the Martial Artist.

 

[Goose]

Problem with this is that a brawler provokes AoO for fighting barehanded, unless your DM says otherwise. Even with brass knucks, you still arent considered armed, so even if you are trying to fight up close with someone that has a gun, they are still considered armed since they can pistol whip or rifle butt you.

 

[DM_Matt]

Problem with this is that a brawler provokes AoO for fighting barehanded, unless your DM says otherwise. Even with brass knucks, you still arent considered armed, so even if you are trying to fight up close with someone that has a gun, they are still considered armed since they can pistol whip or rifle butt you.

Thats why said character got a gun prof and a nice gun at L1

...that problem would also be solved by taking combat martial arts earlier, though, and by the fact that said PC would (since he has sacrificed the potential for another early combat feat to be rich) also be carrying a stun gun or taser to use to aid in disarming before smashing their victim up.

Good Q on the brass knuckles and armedness, though. The rules are a little unclear, altouhgh they lean towards not armed, although that makes little actual sense.

 

[Mistwell]

DM_Matt, I have some very bad news for you.

Charles Ryan, one of the writers of D20M and basically the Sage for the game, and the writer of the upcoming errata and eventual FAQ, has been posting over on the WOTC boards. He made the following rules clarifications concerning Brawl, Brass Knucles, and Combat Martial Arts (all of which I think will make you rather unhappy):

Q: “A few question about how brass knuckles operate. It states in their description that brass knuckles let you do lethal with an unarmed attack but that the attack is otherwise considered unarmed.

Also it states that if you have the brawl feat, that brass knuckles increase the base damage delt by +1 and turn the damage lethal.

SO...my two questions are this. Does the first part mean that even though people with brass knuckles can deal lethal, they still provoke attacks of opportunity when they attack.”

A: Attacks made with brass knuckles provoke attacks of opportunity just like normal unarmed attacks. Also, you cannot make attacks of opportunity with brass knuckles (just as you cannot make AoO with normal unarmed attacks).

Q: With brawl and brass knuckles is the +1 on top of the additional damage from brawl or in stead of. In other words, with brawl and brass knuckles: do I deal 1d6+1 lethat damage or 1D3+1 lethal?

A: 1d3+1.

Q: Do brass knuckles do +1 damage when used by a person with combat martial arts or are brass knuckles essentially useless to someone with combat martial arts (because they can already do lethal)

A: They offer no advantage when used with the Combat Martial Arts feats.

To summarize, brass knuckles allow a regular unarmed strike to do lethal damage (1d3). If a person with the brawl feat uses brass knuckles, they can choose to do either non-lethal brawl damage (1d6)or lethal 1d3+1. Either of these still draw attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. Brass knuckles have no effect for a person using Combat Martial Arts.

Q: There are several feats like "Brawl" that raise the amount of non-lethal damage you do when you make an unarmed attack. My question is if these translate into lethal damage if I have the combat martial arts feat. In other words, if I have combat martial arts and brawl, do I deal 1D6 lethal or nonlethal, my choice. Or it that I can deal 1d4 lethal (combat martial arts) or 1d6 nonlethal (brawl)?

A: At any given time, you use one feat or the other. In other words: If you want to deal nonlethal damage, and don't care if you're considered armed or unarmed, use the Brawl feat to deal 1d6 damage. If you want to deal lethal damage, and/or you want to make an unarmed attack of opportunity (or not provoke an AoO when making your unarmed attack), use the Combat Martial Arts feat and deal only 1d4 damage.

 

[Jeph]

It is most definitely not true that guns are the most powerful weapons in d20 modern. The katana is. (The chainsaw does an extra d6 damage, but lower threat range, and just plain not as cool.)

If your character has Str 16, the only weapon that will outdo his damage is that high powered sniper rifle, and you'll still have greater threat range, and your Melee Smash tallent will make you deal more anyway. If you get Ignor Hardness and Sunder, you'll be able to casually slice all of your opponent's weapons in two. If you get Unbalance Opponent and Defensive Martial Arts, your opponents will be nothing against you in Melee. and whenever they try to shoot you, just knock their heads off. For that reason, you might want to take Combat Reflexes, in order to knock the heads off of multiple jerks with guns in one round.

Just some random thoughts,
-Jeph

 

[Bagpuss]

They can also be tricky if your allies often get between you and your opponant.

Then you switch to autofire and shoot through them, just target a 10' x 10' square they aren't in and you'll be fine.

Well for the 2 seconds before the GM comes up with a house rule.

 

[DM_Matt]

So brass knuckles, brawling, and martial arts all function separately and differently for no real reason and with nothing in the initial text that says so. Now thats some really bad design....I hope for the sake of the system that these rulings get ignored like the sage's generally came to be.

Edit: OK, maybe that was rash. I think that these rulings should be accepted or ignored based on the flavor of the campaign. In warlike settings or those where guns are intended to be the primary combat method, they should stay. However, in a low-gun setting or a setting with law where the PCs are civilians, like Shadow Chasers, for instance, they should be ignored.