D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[The Shaman]

As someone who has enjoyed modern gaming at least as much (if not more) than fantasy since the late 70's, I really see this as a time where we have an embarrasment of riches as opposed to the past.

As a devoted Top Secret player back in the day, and an equally devoted Modern player now, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Jim Hague]

Doesn't Spycraft 2.0 specifically contain mook rules?

As for Savage Worlds... of the reactions I've seen to the game, people either love it to death or just go, "Enh." (Mine was the latter.) If the OP is curious, the freebie sample rules are on the PEG website (as the first person who mentioned SW already said).

Indeed it does - it's an offshoot of the Mutants and Masterminds Toughness save - mooks roll d20 + Toughness bonus versus DC 10 + damage dealt - damage resistance. Though I don't have my book in front of me, I also believe that repeated Toughness saves start applying a -1 penalty to those saves for every one made after the first. Mooks will go down. That combined with an intuitive and fast NPC creation system is one of the things that make SC 2.0 go from Really Good to Friggin' Awesome, IMO. And now that they've put out a PDF, the OGC is eminently mineable.

 

[CSgeekHero]

Thanks everyone!

I've spent quite a bit of time playing HERO the last couple of years and recently I got into a Mutants and Mastermnds game.
That has given me the bug for getting some of my d20, including d20 Modern, stuff out of the closet. I also read on the Traveller20 boards about potentially using Spycraft 2.0 instead of the PHB for the core book. This has led me to seek out some research on Spycraft 2.0. I've heard that Spycraft is more modern action movie oriented like d20 Modern. However, I've been skittish about investing into another book with a modern theme. However, d20M and I just don't seem to get along as most games I have played or GMed in felt like eating fast food( your hungry again in an hour). So hearing you folks breakdown Spycraft 2.0 and compare it to d20 Modern without it turning into a flamefest has given me good insights. I will get me a copy of Spycraft 2.0 for GMing and maybe give d20M another shot as a player.

 

[C. Baize]

Thanks everyone!

I've spent quite a bit of time playing HERO the last couple of years and recently I got into a Mutants and Mastermnds game.
That has given me the bug for getting some of my d20, including d20 Modern, stuff out of the closet. I also read on the Traveller20 boards about potentially using Spycraft 2.0 instead of the PHB for the core book. This has led me to seek out some research on Spycraft 2.0. I've heard that Spycraft is more modern action movie oriented like d20 Modern. However, I've been skittish about investing into another book with a modern theme. However, d20M and I just don't seem to get along as most games I have played or GMed in felt like eating fast food( your hungry again in an hour). So hearing you folks breakdown Spycraft 2.0 and compare it to d20 Modern without it turning into a flamefest has given me good insights. I will get me a copy of Spycraft 2.0 for GMing and maybe give d20M another shot as a player.

And, hey... now it's available as a PDF, too.

 

[buzz]

Quick update: Just wanted to post that I spent a good chunk of the holiday reading Spycraft 2.0, and I must say... it really kicks d20M's bootie. And I say this as someone who realy loves d20M. I have yet to see another d20-based game that makes skill use as interesting as SC2.0 does.

Once Farthest Star and the reprint of the core book come out, I will be beside myself with glee.

Now I just have to convince my group to play it.

 

[C. Baize]

Yeah. I spent a good portion of the weekend reading it, too...
It's okay.
There's some material worth mining.
But I'll stick to D20 Modern.

 

[mcrow]

I pciked up both books:

SC2: i liked it for the fact that I'm sure it would make for a good MI3 type of game. For generic use though, I don't like it. Classes are not flexible for one. It is easily the most complicated d20/OGL game I have ever seen. The price IIRC was $50, not exactly a one per player book.

Modern: again don't like the classes. Chase rules are not good. on the upside there are a lot of suplements written for use with it so there are rule patches out there. The supplements are pretty good allowing you to play sci-fi,old west, psot apoc, and most anything non-fantasy.


For the type of game the OP was thinking of playing I would pick D20 Modern jsut for the fact that has a much lower learning curve IMO.

 

[buzz]

For generic use though, I don't like [Spycraft]. Classes are not flexible for one.

People have statted up quite a variety of characters on the Spycraft boards (Batman is the one that stands out in my memory). I think the espionage-heavy class names conceal how flexible they really are. Granted, they are far more strongly tied to the action/spy genre than d20M.

It is easily the most complicated d20/OGL game I have ever seen.

I'd say "robust". The default game lacks magic, superpowers, and much super-science, ergo, it's going to focus on highly skilled "normals" flexing their talents. Given this assumption, I think the added detail simply makes the core focus of the game more interesting. Skill use is probably 50%-80% of the game, so it better be detailed.

E.g., to disarm a bomb in d20M, you roll a Demolitions check, and you either succeed or fail. In SC2.0, it's going to be a complex check involving multiple rolls that have to be completed within a certain number of rounds, with added Resolve (Concentration) checks if you're trying to do it while being shot at by terrorists. Failing them can increase your error range and eat up time.

To me, the latter is more interesting, assuming things like disarming bombs are a main focus of the game.

The price IIRC was $50, not exactly a one per player book.

$25.17 on Amazon, $1 cheaper than d20M. Plus, it has 155 more pages than d20M.

again don't like [Modern's] classes.

Man, what classes do you like? I like d20M's classes; they were one of the main selling points for me.

on the upside there are a lot of suplements written for use with it so there are rule patches out there. The supplements are pretty good allowing you to play sci-fi,old west, psot apoc, and most anything non-fantasy.

This is d20M's biggest strength, IMO. The core book forms a very good blank canvas for adding on to, and there are a lot of good designers in multiple companies writing for it.

I'll be interested to see the supplements coming out for SC2.0, though. I'm also itching to see how it works in actual play. Looking foward big-time to the SC2.0 event I signed up for at GenCon.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Complex Checks are something I really liked from Alternity that I actually ported over to d20, well, right away.

So I'll agree that has a general leg up.

I need to put together a full-on probability-conversion for d20Modern, showing what the complex-check DCs should be for common DCs listed in the various skill descriptions.

I've been working with d20M alot and, honestly, it causes me to actually respect the decision not to use complex checks.

As Buzz points out, if the game is 60-80% skill checks and is going to feature alot of bomb-defusing action, then a complex skill check like that is a great thing.

But what if it isn't? You can model Sam "The Bombmeister" Johnson with a single throw and a high modifier. "Yay, you easily defused the bomb!" but you can also model John P. McBadass, ACTION HERO, who snips the right wire at the last minute with his toenail clippers while hanging upside down. "I did this once while training for shadow ops in Cambodia."

I.E. one difficult roll is easier to overcome with a lucky roll and spending an Action Point/Die, while complex checks generally favor failure and high skill bonuses.

That is, I think, a major reason for the "Can't Fail This" class abilities. IIRC, they tend to guarantee consistent high rolls for complex checks the class will often be making. I.E. fixing the fact that those complex checks are usually weighted to "the house".

Just a thought I had. D20Modern seems really well suited to doing alot of different genres, because many genre conventions were just left out. I'm working on a wild-west-type game and was in the process of creating a complex (and totally sweet, mind you) system for duels and quick-drawing your gun, etc etc. And I realized ... it's already there. If you want to be good at it, you take Quick Draw and Improved Initiative and have a high dex and spend an AP on your initiative roll. I didn't really need a whole new system, just a little section talking about it.

Some things I do change, of course. D20Modern is "action hero" focused and doesn't do the whole: "Ah! Y'shot me." one-shot-drop like westerns do, so I cranked the MDT down to 10 and added an ability that can force an MDT on a flatfooted character under certain circumstances (and spending an AP). I.E. The guy that loses the draw will have a reasonable chance of ending up at -1hp.

But that, again, is the point. You don't want my wild-west genre convention in your high-flying action game. It's more gritty than would be fun ... unless gritty is what you were looking for.

SC2.0 is an absolutely superb Superspies game. Top of the line.

That very fact starts to trip it up when it goes to do other things.

--fje

 

[2WS-Steve]

One additional plus for SC 2.0, I think, is that when 10,000 Bullets comes out it should be easier to run more generic modern campaigns, since it sounds like that campaign is designed around Sin City style characters and classes.