D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Just to illustrate that simple isn't always better ...

GODLIKE has a one-roll system. Everything you need to know about what you're doing that round you can find in the dice pool you rolled.

Success is determined by how many matches you make ... a pair is a minor success, while five or six is much "better".

Your initiative is determined by the number you're matching, higher is better.

So a guy with two 10s goes before, but is not "better", than a guy with four 3s.

Oh, and the number you're matching determined hit location.

Very elegant in concept ... horrible in practice.

Every round was a clatter of dice with people yelling: "10s!, no 5s! Four 3s! Wait, I've got a pair of 10s!" It was really a pain to sort through and took many times longer than anything I've seen before.

Also, because of that system, for some reason you always got shot in the face before you shot somebody in the leg, because the "Head" was 10 and the "Leg" was 1-4.

Then, if you took the most common sort of skill-super-power ... it always gave you one or more "Permanent 10s" ... meaning if you were a super-shot with pistols ... you could never NOT shoot somebody in the head. It was a whole weird war full of people with the magic power to shoot the other guy in the face REAL FAST.

-fje

 

[Henry]

/Threadjack

Did you ever see Chaosium's Ringworld RPG? That was the first RPG I had ever seen that used something like this. Each action took a certain number of 'pulses' and the referee just counted up the pulses and you could start something new when your old action had finished. Brilliant in principle, but it didn't set the world alight in practice

Feng Shui does the same thing, but in "Shots." The initiative count is a dynamic chart called the "Shot Clock," and whether your action is simple (1 to 3 shots) or more complicated (4 or more shots) determines how often you go in combat. Some martial arts and shootist-types have gimmicks that allow them to take shorter actions (ever see one of those windmill or bicycle kicks in a wuxia film)? Great feel for fast-paced games.

 

[C. Baize]

That's something I both like and dislike.

As I mentioned before, it really can give the system a feeling of: "Same thing, bigger explosion."

Thug Bob is always Thug Bob. When we meet some Thug Bobs at 1st level, they're about X powerful compared to the PCs. When we meet some Thug Bobs at 6th level ... they're still about X powerful compared to the PCs. They scale. They're worth the same number of XP and are the same challenge.

I'm still working my way around the Threat Level system in terms of feeling ... which is just a CR system attached to a series of tables, really. Instead of saying: "Thugs should be of a CR equal to the average party level -2." you get: "See Table X.3.1. line-item seven". If you've got the tables, it makes things quicker.

SC2 is very attached to "qualities". A Thug is a Bear is a Killer Robot is a Parasite Mole ... each has a few different little "qualities" that are found in a bunch of pages in the NPC creation rules.

One day I'll find myself without a computer or my d20M books, have my SC2 book, and a bunch of people will mob me to run something. Then I'll run it. If I get a chance to go to California to see the inlaws again, I'll have to bring it. My brother-in-law and his crew would probably love it.

--fje

Whereabouts in California?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Until you bring in the d20 Future gadget system, and can have a Desert Eagle that is a smaller pistol

-Hyp.

Grrr... D20 Future balance discussion. Get it out of here!

And SC lets you do things like create a soldier out of AIT without making him 4th-5th level, just so he gets the proper gun Feats.

You can do so at 1st-level in D20 Modern.

As I mentioned before, it really can give the system a feeling of: "Same thing, bigger explosion."

You get that from the Living Spycraft adventures.

 

[buzz]

I found Savage Worlds too... formless? for my tastes. It was overly simplified, and not what I wanted at all, at all. Savage Worlds ruined me for Savage Worlds gaming...

I can only speak from doing a read-through, not actual play, but I also found Savage Worlds pretty blah, and ended up trading away the two books I bought (the core and Necessary Evil).

 

[Wystan]

In Spycraft, you can exchange shots about as long as you can exchange sword swings in D&D. Unless somebody crits. Then you take WP damage and probably die in one shot - Dead, not Dying, not Unconscious, Dead. Barring FX, the character is removed from the game and isn't coming back.

Just to clear an erroneous belief here. Most enemies that the characters meet 'CANNOT' crit. Mooks cannot crit, only special NPC's can crit. Therefore most PC 'Deaths' occur in climactic battles against overpowering foes. (A crit costs an action die. This is a high cost. A PC might spend it to kill an NPC Mastermind, but the GM will usually be a bit more judicious in outright killing of players unless they deserve it. You Must Deside You Want To Crit.)

 

[Henry]

You can do so at 1st-level in D20 Modern.

With due respect, I can see his point: You can't do it the way you can in Spycraft. The classes , feats, origins and talents give certain features that Modern 1st level characters can't have without added material and edits. For instance, a 1st level modern soldier will be probably a strong or fast hero, probably point blank and far shot, a d8 for hit dice, and maybe melee smash or extra speed as a talent, and that's about it in the way of mechanical features that make him what he is.

A 1st level Spycraft 2.0 Soldier might start as a Daring Spec Ops (giving him +2 to Dex, -2 to INT, a bonus to init rolls AND action dice, a bonus covert feat, skills with Explosives and Tactics), and then he gets a feat to pick from, plus the bonus feat from Soldier, I believe he gets some boost from wearing armor above what any other character class gets, and plus another bonus to init. The feats themselves often offer better than what a corresponding Modern feat would (the first one that jumps to my mind are the iron will, great fort and lightning reflexes feats: they offer a +3 in the save and PLUS another ability on top!)

Note I'm ignoring the role-playing aspect for a moment, because it kind of cancels out: ANYONE can role-play being a first level spec-op, with the DM's assistance; I'm just making the point that the 1st level Spycraft PC is slightly more capable than the 1st level modern character, because the feats, abilities, skills, etc. are "over the top" compared to their Modern counterparts. In fact, some classes (the Snoop, the Hacker, the Scout come to mind) have a special ability: They CANNOT FAIL in their main skill (computers for hacking, survival for scouts, etc.) if the DC is 20 + their level. You ever get frustrated that your ranger who's supposed to be good at tracking just flubbed with a "3" on his die roll? Well, not in Spycraft 2: Your characters are capable. Even in a failed roll (except for natural "1") you still achieve the minimum possible success.

Wish I had the book for a full comparison, but it's at home.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

With due respect, I can see his point: You can't do it the way you can in Spycraft. The classes , feats, origins and talents give certain features that Modern 1st level characters can't have without added material and edits. For instance, a 1st level modern soldier will be probably a strong or fast hero, probably point blank and far shot, a d8 for hit dice, and maybe melee smash or extra speed as a talent, and that's about it in the way of mechanical features that make him what he is.

No, they'd like have PFP and Armor Proficiency (light) and another feat.

A 1st level Spycraft 2.0 Soldier might start as a Daring Spec Ops

Do you think starting as a SpecOp is a good idea? I don't think it's possible to be a 1st-level specop, anymore than you can be a 1st-level general, otherwise the military would be full of them. Being a SpecOp is something you build towards.

Spycraft is a more powerful setting - more vp, for instance. I don't see this as a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[waterdhavian]

Well In modern it seems that you really need to work at becoming good at something. Very much like a 1st level character in D&D. In Spycraft 2.0 you can start out with some training. It seems that it works well with story. There is actually a 0-level in spycraft. So really the spycraft system allows for some history. If you're a soldier you have probably seen combat or atleast have gone through good amounts of training by the time you start at 1st level.

I am not overly familiar with Modern but from what I have seen, especially in Tony D's Mafia, you start as a nobody, until level 2 or 3 you are just another uninteresting person in the world. When you hit 2-3 you can become part of the mafia. I guess what I am saying is, Modern allows for more in game advancement. Spycraft is all about already being that cool guy.

I personally like spycraft 2.0, but then I really like spy vs spy and espionage/action.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Do you think starting as a SpecOp is a good idea? I don't think it's possible to be a 1st-level specop, anymore than you can be a 1st-level general, otherwise the military would be full of them. Being a SpecOp is something you build towards.

In SpyCraft, you start as a SpecOp at 1st level because level is a completely abstract concept. You can be a 40-year-old veteran agent who has seen it all and done it all... and is still 1st level. Level is simply a way to give the players new gimmicks to play around with and the antagonists new ways to foil those gimmicks. James Bond or Solid Snake can be first level characters and still be as relatively competent as they are in their respective sources.

In d20 Modern, you can't start as a SpecOp because being 1st level means you're a rookie. d20 Modern assumes that a typical ordinary is anywhere from 2nd to 10th level and gains XP as he ages. An average soldier may well be 5th or 6th level, and with the distribution of Heroic vs. Ordinary characters in the d20 Modern core book, most soldiers will probably be Heroic characters in a well-trained modern army. A veteran secret agent would be in the 7+ level range, going as high as 15-20 for a James Bond or a Solid Snake.

SpyCraft's setting is (somewhat) more powerful... but it's mostly just a paradigm for looking at levels.