D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[Pbartender]

Pbartender, I've read the SC II intro PDF already. None of the listed NPCs are named, classed heroes.

Well... That's kind of the point... You add a name and background to the stats. And unless the bad guy is your campaign's equivalent of Darth Vader, they don't normally need classes. In SC 2 generating a PC or NPC using class levels can take quite some time, since there are so many options available. The whole idea behind the NPC generation rules is to streamline that process for NPCs used by the GC. And it works well. I can usually make stats blocks for all the NPCs for an adventure in minutes.

Anyway...

Let's go with a complicated concept. Can you replicate this guy: http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/CR_15_Bodyguard_Leader and this guy: http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/CR_6_Sergeant

Yes, I'm sure I can... as standard NPCs, special NPCs or as PCs with classes (although that would take a considerable amount of time). I don't have my rulebook handy at the moment, but I'll give it a try tonight when I get home from work.

 

[mcrow]

You haven't even played the system - proven by this comment.

I personally think talent trees are great. Hey, flexibility!

I don't know about you, but I can tell whether or not I like a class without playing it.

Since I don't like the way talent trees work, its going to be hard for me to like any d20 modern classes.

I'm not saying you can't like them, I just don't like them.

SC2 classes at the least work great for their intended purpose and implied setting. The structure and mechanics of the classes are cool to, but they are just not as flexible as I would like.

 

[C. Baize]

I don't know about you, but I can tell whether or not I like a class without playing it.

Since I don't like the way talent trees work, its going to be hard for me to like any d20 modern classes.

I'm not saying you can't like them, I just don't like them.

SC2 classes at the least work great for their intended purpose and implied setting. The structure and mechanics of the classes are cool to, but they are just not as flexible as I would like.

Yeah. I like the Talent Trees... because really, they're just choosable class features. Or you might consider them class specific feats.
I dig how flexible they are.
You get to choose at every level.
To each their own, though. Just sounds like if flexibility is what you're after, the D20 Modern Base Classes have it in spades.
Might try Grim Tales... from what I've heard, it's all about flexibility.
I don't have it yet, but I'll likely get it at some point.

 

[Armistice]

I don't know about you, but I can tell whether or not I like a class without playing it.

Since I don't like the way talent trees work, its going to be hard for me to like any d20 modern classes.

I'm not saying you can't like them, I just don't like them.

SC2 classes at the least work great for their intended purpose and implied setting. The structure and mechanics of the classes are cool to, but they are just not as flexible as I would like.

Allright, I'm doing the Seargeant as full special npc (i.e built entirely with class levels) It'll be up soon. As for implied setting as in all of modern or near-future times then I'll agree with this statement. I'd love an example of a 'flexible' character concept. I'll take up the gauntlet and realize him in Spycraft terms (without bending the rules).

[Boring rainy day at home, all work/chores done so take advantage.]

 

[Pbartender]

Allright, I'm doing the Seargeant as full special npc (i.e built entirely with class levels) It'll be up soon. As for implied setting as in all of modern or near-future times then I'll agree with this statement. I'd love an example of a 'flexible' character concept. I'll take up the gauntlet and realize him in Spycraft terms (without bending the rules).

[Boring rainy day at home, all work/chores done so take advantage.]

Using the cheat sheets that I have on hand, here's the sargeant as a Standard NPC...

Sargeant (Standard NPC — 60 XP): Init III; Atk V; Def V; Resilience V; Damage Save: VII; Competence: V; Skills: Intimidate VI, Impress VI, Notice II, Survival II, Tactics V;

Wealth: V; Weapons: 1 × Caliber 3; Gear: 3 × Caliber 1; Vehicle: None;

Qualities: camouflaged (any one terrain), damage reduction 1, feat (2 feats), superior attribute (+2 Str, +2 Dex), specialty (Recruit), talented (Grizzled).

I didn't fill in the 2 feats, since I don't have my rulebook with me, but I know that there are several feats that would stand in for Brawl and Remain Concious... Maybe Armistice can find them for me.

I picked Grizzled and Recruit as the most appropriate talent and specialty for a sargeant, although there's others that would work as well... Burly, Caustic, Disciplined, Fierce, Reliable, Resolute, Retired, or Veteran for talents and Hunter, Instructor, Mercenary, Outdoorsman, Rescuer, Sailor, Special Ops, or Warrior for specialties.

A Threat Level 6 (roughly equivalent to CR 6) version of this sargeant might look something like...

Sargeant (Standard NPC — 60 XP): Init +2; Atk +4; Def +4; Resilience +3; Damage Save: +11; Competence: +3; Skills: Intimidate +9, Impress +9, Notice +5, Survival +5, Tactics +7;

Wealth: Lifestyle 3 (Average)/Possessions 10 (1 × Caliber 4, 3 × Caliber 3, 3 × Caliber 2, 5 × Caliber 1)/Spending Cash 2 ($400); Weapons: 1 × Caliber 3; Gear: 3 × Caliber 1; Vehicle: None;

Qualities: camouflaged (any one terrain), damage reduction 1, feat (2 feats), superior attribute (+2 Str, +2 Dex), specialty (Recruit), talented (Grizzled).

 

[Falkus]

And here's my take the bodyguard as a special NPC

Bodyguard Leader Branden McKendrick (Special NPC, EXP: 183)
Init: IV; Atk: VIII; Def: X; Resilience: VII; VP/WP: IX; Competence: VIII; Wealth: None
Proficiencies: Handgun, Unarmed
Equipment: Beretta 92f, 3 magazines, trendy low-profile armor, Caliber III tactical radio
Qualities: Damage Reduction x3, Extended Training
Feats: CQB Basics, CQB Mastery, martial arts (dexterity), Quick Draw, Tac Squad basics, Tac Squad Mastery, Tac Squad Supremecy,
Skills: Blend VII, Intimidate VII, Notice X, Resolve X, Tactics X
Class abilitities: Strategem, Take the Hit II x3, Ten against Ten Thousand
Superior abilities: Strength 12, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 12, Charisma 14

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And here's my take the bodyguard as a special NPC

Bodyguard Leader Branden McKendrick (Special NPC, EXP: 183)
Init: IV; Atk: VIII; Def: X; Resilience: VII; VP/WP: IX; Competence: VIII; Wealth: None
Proficiencies: Handgun, Unarmed
Equipment: Beretta 92f, 3 magazines, trendy low-profile armor, Caliber III tactical radio
Qualities: Damage Reduction x3, Extended Training
Feats: CQB Basics, CQB Mastery, martial arts (dexterity), Quick Draw, Tac Squad basics, Tac Squad Mastery, Tac Squad Supremecy,
Skills: Blend VII, Intimidate VII, Notice X, Resolve X, Tactics X
Class abilitities: Strategem, Take the Hit II x3, Ten against Ten Thousand
Superior abilities: Strength 12, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 12, Charisma 14

I'm a bit confused by this character now. So I have to ask a few things:

What is his equivalent CR? Eg if something is worth 183 XP, how much of a challenge is he to, say, 3rd-level characters? 10th? 15th? I'm sure this is covered in Spycraft rules.

Atk VIII - if he didn't have Martial Arts (Dexterity), would his martial arts attack bonus be the same as his gun attack bonus?

This character's Modern version specifically took feats to boost his firearms damage. Is this listed here somewhere?

What is the difference between the Squad Leader feats and Strategem?

 

[buzz]

I would also suggest people check out some key threads on the AEG/Spycraft boards.

The conversions document updates most of the books published for SC1.0, including Dark Inheritance and the Stargate RPG. It also includes revised ruels for psi and magic, and hwo to integrate D&D spells into SC2.0.

The Star Wars 2.0 thread provides a conversion for playing SW with SC2.0.

The FAQ and errata thread has lots of info on class creation, too.

 

[Falkus]

What is his equivalent CR?

He's a special NPC. He scales to the level of the PCs.

Eg if something is worth 183 XP, how much of a challenge is he to, say, 3rd-level characters? 10th? 15th? I'm sure this is covered in Spycraft rules.

183 EXP makes him a rather signicant threat, especially since this character is designed to be working with a sizable team of other bodyguards.

Atk VIII - if he didn't have Martial Arts (Dexterity), would his martial arts attack bonus be the same as his gun attack bonus?

No, it would be slightly lower, since he'd be adding his strength bonus instead of his dexterity bonus.

This character's Modern version specifically took feats to boost his firearms damage. Is this listed here somewhere?

Not really, but the CQB basics gives him certain advantages. I could give him the Style over caliber feat, which lets him do 1d10+2 damage with any handgun.

What is the difference between the Squad Leader feats and Strategem?

Strategem increases the initiative count of each of his teammates by 1 at the start of each round, while the tac squad feats give him and his teammates certain abilities when his team has the numerical advantage, such as having all of their opponents count as being flanked.

 

[Pbartender]

What is his equivalent CR? Eg if something is worth 183 XP, how much of a challenge is he to, say, 3rd-level characters? 10th? 15th? I'm sure this is covered in Spycraft rules.

It works a bit differently than that... the XP just tells you, in very general terms, how powerful an NPC is. The Threat Level of the mission (which is normally based on the average level of the party), determines the exact bonuses of all those roman numerals. Higher roman numeral equates to bigger bonus, but higher Threat Level also increases the bonus. That means you can quickly and easily use the same stat block for 1st level characters as you can for 20th level characters, and the NPC should provide roughly an equivalent challenge to either party.

For example...

Bumping my Standard NPC sargeant up to Threat Level 15, gives us:

Sargeant (Standard NPC — 60 XP): Init +5; Atk +11; Def +9; Resilience +7; Damage Save: +14; Competence: +5; Skills: Intimidate +18, Impress +18, Notice +9, Survival +9, Tactics +15;

Wealth: Lifestyle 3 (Average)/Possessions 10 (1 × Caliber 4, 3 × Caliber 3, 3 × Caliber 2, 5 × Caliber 1)/Spending Cash 2 ($400); Weapons: 1 × Caliber 3; Gear: 3 × Caliber 1; Vehicle: None;

Qualities: camouflaged (any one terrain), damage reduction 1, feat (2 feats), superior attribute (+2 Str, +2 Dex), specialty (Recruit), talented (Grizzled).

Knocking him down to Threat Level 1 gives us:

Sargeant (Standard NPC — 60 XP): Init +0; Atk +0; Def +1; Resilience +1; Damage Save: +9; Competence: +2; Skills: Intimidate +4, Impress +4, Notice +2, Survival +2, Tactics +3;

Wealth: Lifestyle 3 (Average)/Possessions 10 (1 × Caliber 4, 3 × Caliber 3, 3 × Caliber 2, 5 × Caliber 1)/Spending Cash 2 ($400); Weapons: 1 × Caliber 3; Gear: 3 × Caliber 1; Vehicle: None;

Qualities: camouflaged (any one terrain), damage reduction 1, feat (2 feats), superior attribute (+2 Str, +2 Dex), specialty (Recruit), talented (Grizzled).

The actual experience gained from encountering this fellow is based on the base XP of the stats block (60 in this case) and the Threat Level of the mission.