D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[Vigilance]

Which is wonderful. But I am so jonesin' for things in some of these books, I'm gonna have to say "bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush" for the moment...

And not to mention, Modern has the Modern Dispatch, a weekly e-zine made by 12 to Midnight, Adamant, Roning Arts and RPGObjects that is approaching 100 issues of game and adventure support.

So even if you took away ALL the supplements for Modern, just the Dispatch would be hard to catch up to.

 

[Vigilance]

What is amazing about Modern

Here's what's great about d20M.

I have seen folks go back and forth about which system can handle X or Y concept, and that's all well and good and a good litmus test on some level for a game. But since both games can handle lots of character concepts, because they're both well-designed games, that's not very instructive.

What is amazing about d20M to me is that you can do the SAME concept so many different ways.

[Sblock]Strong Martial Artist (Strong Hero 3/Martial Artist 3): CR 6; Medium-size humanoid; HD 3d8+6 plus 3d8+6; HP 40; Mas 14; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; Defense 15, touch 15, flatfooted 14 (+0 size, +1 Dex, +4 class); BAB +6; Grap +11; Atk +9 melee (1d6+5, weapon), or +7 ranged (1d6+0, weapon); FS 5 ft by 5 ft; Reach 5 ft; SQ ; AL none; SV Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2; AP 3; Rep +0; Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Occupation: Military (Knowledge [Tactics], Move Silently)
Skills: Balance +4, Climb +6, Craft (structural) +4, Escape Artist +4, Handle Animal +2, Hide +4, Intimidate +2, Jump +9, Knowledge (Tactics) +5, Move Silently +5, Swim +6
Feats: Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Combat Martial Arts, Combat Throw, Defensive Martial Arts, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Simple Weapons Proficiency
Talents (Strong Hero): Melee Smash, Improved Melee Smash
Talents (Martial Artist): Living Weapon 1d6, Flying Kick
Possessions: weapon, weapon; Wealth +6[/Sblock]

This guy is all about offense. Good HP, excellent BAB, Melee Smash makes his unarmed damage 1d6+5 without using Power Attack.

[SBlock]Fast Martial Artist (Fast Hero 4/Martial Artist 2): CR 6; Medium-size humanoid; HD 4d8+4 plus 2d8+2; HP 33; Mas 13; Init +3; Spd 40 ft; Defense 19, touch 19, flatfooted 16 (+0 size, +3 Dex, +6 class); BAB +5; Grap +7; Atk +7 melee (1d6+2, weapon), or +8 ranged (1d6+0, weapon); FS 5 ft by 5 ft; Reach 5 ft; SQ ; AL none; SV Fort +2, Ref +8, Will +1; AP 3; Rep +1; Str 14, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Occupation: Adventurer (Jump, Survival)
Skills: Balance +11, Escape Artist +11, Hide +13, Jump +9, Move Silently +13, Survival +6, Tumble +9
Feats: Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Combat Martial Arts, Defensive Martial Arts, Dodge, Mobility, Simple Weapons Proficiency, Spring Attack, Stealthy
Talents (Fast Hero): Increased Speed, Improved Increased Speed
Talents (Martial Artist): Living Weapon 1d6, Flying Kick
Possessions: weapon, weapon; Wealth +6[/SBlock]

This guy is all over the field of battle. Doesn't do as much damage as the Strong Martial Artist, nor does he have as good a BAB. However his movement and defense are higher allowing him to take much better advantage of his Flying Kick class ability, Mobility feat and Spring Attack feat. He also has much better skill selection. His saves are also worse overall.

And you could do martial artists based off the Tough, Dedicated, Smart and even Charismatic classes as well.

d20M doesn't pick your archetype and slot him into a combatant or non-combatant. It lets YOU do that.

I know some will say "but feats!"

Sure, a game could allow you to customize your character using feats, but the basic classes in d20M go well beyond that, influencing your character's BAB, saves and skill points. And of course talents (the class abilities that let the Strong Martial Artist do more damage and the Fast Martial Artist move faster) are abilities you can't acquire anywhere else.

Watching a character in combat, you can feel the "legacy" of his basic class in how he plays and what things he's good at when he's 15th level, even if he and another character took the exact same advanced class.

In other words, d20M models the majority of movies better than any other game. Did you ever watch Saving Private Ryan, or Bloodsport, or Lethal Weapon and try to slot the main characters into their classes?

In many cases you end up with "Soldier, Soldier, Soldier, Soldier". But each is a different KIND of soldier. Hence the ability to use basic classes to make each soldier a completely different kind of character, some of whom won't be combatants at all.

Chuck

 

[Psion]

In a way, chuck, I agree. I probably don't think this is as significant as you, but I've brought up a point similar to this when people bash d20 modern. I don't think I'd call this "modeling better" -- because there is more to modeling than chargen, and I won't get into how much more a beautiful thing I think the spycraft skill system is -- so much as "going beyond classes as professions."

Sometimes modelling a class as something other than a profession is something that you need. This can be a real useful tool if the GM wants to have the whole party be the same or similar professions, but allow them to distinguish themselves. The example I usually give here is the Abyss. The main characters are a crew of deep sea mining explorers. But each has a distinct personality.

That said, Chuck, back on the other hand, I will say "but feats". And I'll also say "but talents" and "but specialties." One thing Spycraft is NOT in danger of is every soldier being the same. Talents and specialties are conceptually rich, and force you to differentiate your character from other characters of the same class at level one, something that I think the do more effectively than 6 attribute classes.

 

[Vigilance]

That said, Chuck, back on the other hand, I will say "but feats". And I'll also say "but talents" and "but specialties." One thing Spycraft is NOT in danger of is every soldier being the same. Talents and specialties are conceptually rich, and force you to differentiate your character from other characters of the same class at level one, something that I think the do more effectively than 6 attribute classes.

I've said this before, but let me be clear: I have nothing bad to say about the Spycraft design.

So what you mean "but feats and specialties" is that they do the same thing. As for doing it more effectively... imo every single d20 Modern advanced class is 6 classes, because each pairing with a basic class spins it into a different niche. That's hard to top.

My experience has been the people who complain about d20M usually have not played it at all, or only played a few sessions. The strengths of the system slowly grow on you as you work with it and see all the different ways you can advance your character as he grows and all the different roles you can springboard him into.

d20M isn't the game where you start out as Ethan Hunt at 1st level. It's the game where you start out as an incredibly shy nerd named Willow Rosenberg and several years later can frighten just about anyone with a display of your magical power. Of course your other equally geeky friend can't do much of anything except take a punch like nobody's business, but Xander never left the basic classes. He like the Robust talent too much I guess.

Now I can model Buffy's slow character growth in d20M *and* and I can do The Unit *and* I can do Best of the Best.

I think Spycraft could model any of those as well, but on the first, it can't model the low end of the Spectrum, which I enjoy a lot.

As for support. I keep seeing people say "there will be support" and I'm sure there will be. Sprcraft is too good a game for that not to happen. I've advocated it for RPGObjects myself.

But I think people underestimate the sheer volume of support. If the four most prolific modern designers switched to Spycraft full time tomorrow, it would take 4 years to draw even.

We're trying to figure out how to celebrate the fact that the freaking *EZINE* Chris and I started a couple years back, which was a monthly then and has grown into a weekly produced by the 4 top companies in Modern support should support its 100th issue.

I guess it's too bad all us designers wasted all this time on a boring clunky game huh?

Chuck

 

[mcrow]

Here's what's great about d20M.

I have seen folks go back and forth about which system can handle X or Y concept, and that's all well and good and a good litmus test on some level for a game. But since both games can handle lots of character concepts, because they're both well-designed games, that's not very instructive.

What is amazing about d20M to me is that you can do the SAME concept so many different ways.

[Sblock]Strong Martial Artist (Strong Hero 3/Martial Artist 3): CR 6; Medium-size humanoid; HD 3d8+6 plus 3d8+6; HP 40; Mas 14; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; Defense 15, touch 15, flatfooted 14 (+0 size, +1 Dex, +4 class); BAB +6; Grap +11; Atk +9 melee (1d6+5, weapon), or +7 ranged (1d6+0, weapon); FS 5 ft by 5 ft; Reach 5 ft; SQ ; AL none; SV Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2; AP 3; Rep +0; Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Occupation: Military (Knowledge [Tactics], Move Silently)
Skills: Balance +4, Climb +6, Craft (structural) +4, Escape Artist +4, Handle Animal +2, Hide +4, Intimidate +2, Jump +9, Knowledge (Tactics) +5, Move Silently +5, Swim +6
Feats: Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Combat Martial Arts, Combat Throw, Defensive Martial Arts, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Simple Weapons Proficiency
Talents (Strong Hero): Melee Smash, Improved Melee Smash
Talents (Martial Artist): Living Weapon 1d6, Flying Kick
Possessions: weapon, weapon; Wealth +6[/Sblock]

This guy is all about offense. Good HP, excellent BAB, Melee Smash makes his unarmed damage 1d6+5 without using Power Attack.

[SBlock]Fast Martial Artist (Fast Hero 4/Martial Artist 2): CR 6; Medium-size humanoid; HD 4d8+4 plus 2d8+2; HP 33; Mas 13; Init +3; Spd 40 ft; Defense 19, touch 19, flatfooted 16 (+0 size, +3 Dex, +6 class); BAB +5; Grap +7; Atk +7 melee (1d6+2, weapon), or +8 ranged (1d6+0, weapon); FS 5 ft by 5 ft; Reach 5 ft; SQ ; AL none; SV Fort +2, Ref +8, Will +1; AP 3; Rep +1; Str 14, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Occupation: Adventurer (Jump, Survival)
Skills: Balance +11, Escape Artist +11, Hide +13, Jump +9, Move Silently +13, Survival +6, Tumble +9
Feats: Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Combat Martial Arts, Defensive Martial Arts, Dodge, Mobility, Simple Weapons Proficiency, Spring Attack, Stealthy
Talents (Fast Hero): Increased Speed, Improved Increased Speed
Talents (Martial Artist): Living Weapon 1d6, Flying Kick
Possessions: weapon, weapon; Wealth +6[/SBlock]

This guy is all over the field of battle. Doesn't do as much damage as the Strong Martial Artist, nor does he have as good a BAB. However his movement and defense are higher allowing him to take much better advantage of his Flying Kick class ability, Mobility feat and Spring Attack feat. He also has much better skill selection. His saves are also worse overall.

And you could do martial artists based off the Tough, Dedicated, Smart and even Charismatic classes as well.

d20M doesn't pick your archetype and slot him into a combatant or non-combatant. It lets YOU do that.

I know some will say "but feats!"

Sure, a game could allow you to customize your character using feats, but the basic classes in d20M go well beyond that, influencing your character's BAB, saves and skill points. And of course talents (the class abilities that let the Strong Martial Artist do more damage and the Fast Martial Artist move faster) are abilities you can't acquire anywhere else.

Watching a character in combat, you can feel the "legacy" of his basic class in how he plays and what things he's good at when he's 15th level, even if he and another character took the exact same advanced class.

In other words, d20M models the majority of movies better than any other game. Did you ever watch Saving Private Ryan, or Bloodsport, or Lethal Weapon and try to slot the main characters into their classes?

In many cases you end up with "Soldier, Soldier, Soldier, Soldier". But each is a different KIND of soldier. Hence the ability to use basic classes to make each soldier a completely different kind of character, some of whom won't be combatants at all.

Chuck

I agree both games are very good "modern" games. As Psion said, i don't believe that with either system you are in danger getting stuck with cookie cutter characters. It's more the execution,flavor, and style that spycraft has that makes it better IMO. I think that in the end you can take either system and come up with a game that has the feel you are after.

 

[Pbartender]

I think Spycraft could model any of those as well, but on the first, it can't model the low end of the Spectrum, which I enjoy a lot.

Yup... They're both great games, but with significantly different styles.

Different Strokes for Different Folks and all that...

But I think people underestimate the sheer volume of support. If the four most prolific modern designers switched to Spycraft full time tomorrow, it would take 4 years to draw even.

That's the benefit of being a game backed by WotC, eh?

That alone will prevent Spycraft from competing with D20M in the area of secondary products... It's like saying, "D&D has a lot more support than Iron Heroes!" Of course it does. That doesn't mean that one's necessarily a better game than the other, but it does mean that there's a lot more secondary material to draw from, if the game itself doesn't suit you perfectly.

 

[Psion]

So what you mean "but feats and specialties" is that they do the same thing.

Don't jim pinto on me here. (If you don't understand that, ask me in the chatroom some day...) I don't see talents and specialities as the same thing as feats. In fact, I think they more strongly resemble the backgrounds you wrote for the legends line. They define more what the character is than what the character can do.

My experience has been the people who complain about d20M usually have not played it at all, or only played a few sessions. The strengths of the system slowly grow on you as you work with it and see all the different ways you can advance your character as he grows and all the different roles you can springboard him into.

Fair enough. I hope you aren't acusing me of that. I know its strengths, and I think I've enumerated them quite a few times. I also know its frustrations.

I think Spycraft could model any of those as well, but on the first, it can't model the low end of the Spectrum, which I enjoy a lot.

That's fair enough too, but I will rejoinder that I don't think, despite what Alex Flagg may tell you, that a 1st level character can reasonably be called an Ethan Hunt. But 1st level spycraft characters are certainly meant to be a cut above.

But I think people underestimate the sheer volume of support. If the four most prolific modern designers switched to Spycraft full time tomorrow, it would take 4 years to draw even.

I've tried to communicate that as well.

I guess it's too bad all us designers wasted all this time on a boring clunky game huh?

What? You write for GURPS now?

(Okay, quit pelting me, GURPS fans. I was trying to make a funny and it was convenient...)

 

[Vigilance]

That's the benefit of being a game backed by WotC, eh?

It certainly wasn't just that. The response was very slow at first.

As someone who was there from day 1, getting one of pre-release SRDs I can tell you a much faster jumping on was expected by WOTC.

In the early days it was basically RPGObjects and The Game Mechanics.

The rules were a big departure from standard d20, so they took some digesting and a lot of folks, frankly, weren't convinced the system would fly.

But the d20 Modern 3rd party support had little to do with WOTC imo. Designers certainly aren't afraid to come up with a variant system if they don't like it. It's a testament, believe it or not, to the quality of the RULES and how us "early adopters" showed the strengths in those rules others missed at first.

The fact that they're still missing those strengths is pretty depressing.

 

[Vigilance]

That's fair enough too, but I will rejoinder that I don't think, despite what Alex Flagg may tell you, that a 1st level character can reasonably be called an Ethan Hunt. But 1st level spycraft characters are certainly meant to be a cut above.

Oh I agree with that. And I have had mixed feelings how long it takes to become a badass in d20M. On the other hand, no game I've ever ran modeled Buffy Season 1 well *at all* except d20M and it's a beautiful thing to see characters slowly grow into something very different from what they intended.

Often because the campaign went in a different direction than intended.

One of the best campaigns I ever ran was a stealth X-files game in which the PCs were never EVER told it was an X-files game. They were told it was a Silence of the Lamb-style FBI profiler game (and sometimes it even was).

Along with low level play, the ability to radically switch genre mid-stream is another HUGE strength of d20M (especially with all those 3rd party books).

I've tried to communicate that as well.

Hope I'm not being snarky, not my intent. I just see a lot more folks supporting Spycraft in this thread and I felt a lot of it's strengths weren't being adressed.

What? You write for GURPS now?

(Okay, quit pelting me, GURPS fans. I was trying to make a funny and it was convenient...)

Ouch. I actually love GURPs, ran it for years and writing for it has always been on my list of career goals

Chuck

 

[mcrow]

I have played some D20 Modern and a few one-shots of SC2.

I will point out that I'm certain that I don't have nearly as much playing time with either of the games as most of the posters here. I have not used or seen any of the TP publsihed stuff for D20 modern and didn't use any supplements for SC2. So my comments are what I think when comparing core rulebook vs core rulebook. I'm sure that if you compare all published d20 modern material VS all published SC material that d20 modern would easily appeal to more players than SC2.

For the record I never said either game sucked or was bad. Parts of each may be bad but overall both are good games.