D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[Pbartender]

Aha! I found a few of my notes from the last Chicago Gameday I attended. I ran a Spycraft 2.0 game that was a spoof of Wild Wild West -- A spoof of a spoof, you say? Anyway, for anyone interested in seeing a few pre-generated characters and NPCs from a Spycraft adventure geared toward the gunslinging cowboy spaghetti western genre, I'm attaching the Word document...

 

[Armistice]

That's some cool stuff there Pbartender. I especially like the creative way you managed to 'westernize' some of the gear. Whiskey flask stimulants indeed. Good job.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I guess that Step 1 of NPC Creation (that's pp. 441-443), focusing on the NPC's concept, including things like motivations, strengths and weaknesses is 'neutering' from the roleplaying perspective? That the call for each and every NPC to be memorable to the PCs is just...what? Granted, there's no gnoll pimps or Special Forces-garbed kobolds, but come on.

You're factually incorrect, too - the Treacherous Quality (pp. 451) isn't applied to solely to Special NPCs. That's the one you're complaining about, by the by - the ability for NPCs to gain GC-activated criticals. For that matter, those 'neutered' NPCs carry the same - or better - equipment as the PCs, making them fairly significant threats, even without the Treacherous NPC Quality.

Consider the SWAT writeup, or the Special Forces trooper - each one poses a significant threat to PCs individually, complete with some nasty NPC Qualities (like the CQB Feats and Marksman Feats) to bolster the equipment they're carrying. All of the sudden, those Vitality Points don't look like they'll stand up so well when the PC is facing someone firing at them with an assault rifle or chucking grenades.

You're making a bogus argument, Heap. If you don't like the system, fine, great, super; the Game Police aren't going to come and take D20 Modern away from you. But for pete's sake, man, don't make statements like the ones above, because you're just plain wrong.

My humble and heartfelt appo-polo-logies, droog.

There goes the happy-shiny feeling of the thread. The brotherhood. The camaraderie. The LOVE. Why can't we all just get along? Etc, etc, e pluribus unum, yadda yadda, ad infinitum.

What I was pointing out was that, in general, the "deadliness" of VP/WP is, by and large, mitigated by the effective neutering of standard NPCs by keeping them from bypassing VP and hitting directly to WP.

As opposed to, say, SWRPG where your random Stormtrooper could "accidentally" give a PC the bosh with a lucky crit with a blaster rifle.

I wasn't taking a whizz on your beloved system, nor rabidly defending the tarnished honor of my girlfriend D20Modern.

That you like the "Step 1" is great fun for you and yours. I didn't bring it up. That we know what John P. Mook had for lunch and that his deepest fear is not being liked by others and that's why he groups with at least (Number Of PCs x2) Minions of his same stats is ... great. I wouldn't call him emotionally or role-playing-perspectively neutered. Didn't say that's what I thought, though, did I?

Standard NPCs are there to be an annoyance. They have a Damage Save to speed up how fast the PCs can knock them down. They can't crit without a specific attribute that represents a "contract killer, trained assassin" or the like (I.E., everybody shouldn't have it). The SWAT team might come in with 1d10+1 SMGs, but the PCs average d10s on VP, as well.

Not that it's bad. Not that the game isn't a shining jewel amidst the bric-a-brac upon one's gaming shelf. Just that, on the average, the NPCs don't go around bumping off the PCs ANYWAY ... so while the system uses VP/WP and the GM gets Action Dice, it doesn't mean we crank up "Bodies" unless the PCs have buckets of multi-benefit feats.

It means the multi-benefit feats are a SpyCraft convention because that's the style of play it adheres to. The PCs are meant to be very capable action heroes of high class and caliber. Sort of James Bonds. (If I get a chance to be on the player side of the fence, I want to play a Russian Pointman/Faceman with "Style Over Caliber" and "Bloodstain Resistant" and a PSM.) James Bond doesn't get gunned down by the Kalishnakov-toting Ruskies, he runs through the library while they blow all of the books to fluttering scraps around him.

--fje

 

[Morgenstern]

Standard NPCs are there to be an annoyance. They have a Damage Save to speed up how fast the PCs can knock them down. They can't crit without a specific attribute that represents a "contract killer, trained assassin" or the like (I.E., everybody shouldn't have it). The SWAT team might come in with 1d10+1 SMGs, but the PCs average d10s on VP, as well.

...

It means the multi-benefit feats are a SpyCraft convention because that's the style of play it adheres to. The PCs are meant to be very capable action heroes of high class and caliber. Sort of James Bonds. (If I get a chance to be on the player side of the fence, I want to play a Russian Pointman/Faceman with "Style Over Caliber" and "Bloodstain Resistant" and a PSM.) James Bond doesn't get gunned down by the Kalishnakov-toting Ruskies, he runs through the library while they blow all of the books to fluttering scraps around him.

I swear, I keep thinking you're talking about 1st edition . The point he's making, and I think its a fair one is that NPCs don't have to be mere annoyances nor do you have to let players shine like gods in comparison to their opponents. That is presumption of playstyle that is just not true in the second edition. There are credible (heck, downright savage) opponents stated up ready-to-go in the book and building your own is so easy as to be a non-issue. Damage saves can easily be set high enough to make NPC virtually bulletproof (and that before putting on an actual bullet proof vest!) and giving them "tough" one or more times (increasing the number of damage saves before they go down) can actually make them quite a bit more resilient than the players are. Opponents that thickl are simply worth a few more more XP, encouraging players to try something other than the gettum/frontal assualt.

Similarly, you can ratchet players down quite a bit. The default may be willfully and deliberately summer blockbuster, but there are campaign qualities to drop back to TV show scale (heck, it's called "small screen") or even all the way down to more dangerous and bloody than real life - in a consistant, easily understood way. We didn't somehow miss that D20 Modern enthusiasts have been telling us for years that they like playing regular joes. Happy to oblige .

As to feats like "This... Is my Boom Stick!", it needs to be understood in the context of the rest of the Ranged Combat feat tree. The leading choices for firearms butt kicking combat effectiveness are the 3-part chains: CQB Basics-Mastery-Supremacy, Marksmanship Basics-Mastery-Supremacy, Sharpshooter Basics-Mastery-Supremacy, and Follow-up Shot and Hail of Fire. These feats give you your bread and butter benefits and apply equally to all guns. Scattered around the edges are a couple of stand-alone feats the focus on a single narrow weapon type. These are the shtick feats. If you want to be good with guns, you work one of those chains. If you want to be the guy that makes a shotgun dance or a flamethrower sing, you only need to spend one feat to pick up all the odd-ball little perks that are unique to that weapon. Lets look at "This... Is my Boom Stick!" (that's the actual name of the feat - quotation marks and all) ~

Shotgun as club - Ok, so after you've put a couple of blasts into the advancing wall of chemo-zombies, it's nice to be able to Babe Ruth one in the head without breaking stride. Powerful? Not really - it's a fricken' club, yeah? But damn if it doesn't make you feel cool when you do it .

Fire a Shotgun with one hand 1 hand at a -2 to hit - Ok, now this is a game where shields are really, really uncommon, so why aren't you using both hands? Because you're doing something cool with the other one like typing in a password, hanging on to a buddy who's been knocked over the rail of a catwalk, or maybe clutching the all important maguffin you just picked up to your chest. The point is this is a trivial benefit - it's letting you use a shotgun (at a penalty!) the same way your buddy would use a pistol. But it gives you options when you need that other hand. It says "I've got style."

+4 to the DC of Damage and Takedown saves - So, if you are shooting at goons with a shotgun, wouldn't you like to know that they are going to die?! And if they don't die, at the very least they are gonna be knocked on their butts in a pool of their own blood? Yeah, this is the meat and potatoes of the feat for the combat min/maxer, but it doesn't work so well against folks with w/vp - meaning it lets you clear obstacles (literally - it's great for blowing doors off their hinges) but it doesn't let you just plow right through the final fight with impunity.

When you hit an opponent with a shotgun, they are pushed back 5 ft. - Remember those chemo-zombies? Now your buddies are especially glad you brough Ol' Bessie. And that punk you left in a pool of his own blood? He didn't just crumple - you knocked him on his butt. Tactical value? Some. Sheer glee factor? I'm calling it about a 9.2 .

Finally, the large picture of a guy with a smoking double-barreled shotgun right below the feat also helps sorta suggest what it does in case the movie quote is unfamiliar .


...And if you think we didn't put a whole lot of thought into feat names, I'll point out that with only two exceptions (from late edits I didn't catch), EVERY SINGLE FEAT CHAIN IN THE BOOK is in alphabetical order.
Every Basics -> Mastery -> Supremacy chain.

...and all the ones with seemingly irregular names...

Advanced Skill Mastery -> Grand Skill Mastery -> Perfect Skill Mastery.
Combat Expertise -> Expert Disarm.
Quick Draw -> Snake Strike.
All or Nothing -> Better Luck Next Time -> Fortune's Fool.
Fortunate -> Fortune Favors the Bold -> Lady Luck's Smile.
Lucky Break -> Misfortune -> Peculiar Dodge.
Driving Instincts -> Professional Driver - Closed Course.
Offensive Driving -> Relentless Pursuit.
Bludgeon -> Whack.
Deadly Precision -> No Quarter.
Executioner -> Merciless.
Silver Spoon -> Well Funded.
Political Clout -> Political Favors -> Political Immunity.

That's not an accident. They appear in the book both in alphabetical order and in the order you can take them so if you're just reading through causually, you know that any prerequisite you see is somewhere earlier in that section, and any follow on feats, well, they follow it in the book. And they look good when you write them on your character sheet . Neat. Tidy.

Definitely worth the extra time and care that went into naming them .

 

[The Shaman]

...nor rabidly defending the tarnished honor of my girlfriend D20Modern.

Dude, just ignore that stuff on the bathroom walls - we all know she isn't like that.


Unless, you know, she gets a couple drinks in her. Then she gets kinda freaky.

 

[The Shaman]

Lets look at "This... Is my Boom Stick!" (that's the actual name of the feat - quotation marks and all) ~

Shotgun as club - Ok, so after you've put a couple of blasts into the advancing wall of chemo-zombies, it's nice to be able to Babe Ruth one in the head without breaking stride. Powerful? Not really - it's a fricken' club, yeah? But damn if it doesn't make you feel cool when you do it .

Fire a Shotgun with one hand 1 hand at a -2 to hit - Ok, now this is a game where shields are really, really uncommon, so why aren't you using both hands? Because you're doing something cool with the other one like typing in a password, hanging on to a buddy who's been knocked over the rail of a catwalk, or maybe clutching the all important maguffin you just picked up to your chest. The point is this is a trivial benefit - it's letting you use a shotgun (at a penalty!) the same way your buddy would use a pistol. But it gives you options when you need that other hand. It says "I've got style."

+4 to the DC of Damage and Takedown saves - So, if you are shooting at goons with a shotgun, wouldn't you like to know that they are going to die?! And if they don't die, at the very least they are gonna be knocked on their butts in a pool of their own blood? Yeah, this is the meat and potatoes of the feat for the combat min/maxer, but it doesn't work so well against folks with w/vp - meaning it lets you clear obstacles (literally - it's great for blowing doors off their hinges) but it doesn't let you just plow right through the final fight with impunity.

When you hit an opponent with a shotgun, they are pushed back 5 ft. - Remember those chemo-zombies? Now your buddies are especially glad you brough Ol' Bessie. And that punk you left in a pool of his own blood? He didn't just crumple - you knocked him on his butt. Tactical value? Some. Sheer glee factor? I'm calling it about a 9.2 .

Finally, the large picture of a guy with a smoking double-barreled shotgun right below the feat also helps sorta suggest what it does in case the movie quote is unfamiliar .

And this is why I like d20 Modern.

It's great that gamers have a selection of modern RPGs to choose from, eh?

 

[solkan_uk]

I sold all my d20 modern stuff after I played Spycraft once.
I sat down and thought, well, what can D20 Modern do better, and couldn't think of anything.

Yes Spycraft uses archetype characters, and yet I have an easier time coming up with stats for any movie/book/series/comic character in Spycraft than I do in D20 Modern. I used to like D20 Modern a lot, it was good, but better came along.

The Archetype thing is only a problem when you get into a certain D&D mindset. In D&D a character with the Paladin class is known as a Paladin in the game (though I don't like that idea either, would the average guy know whether your a Paladin, Fighter/Cleric, Straight Cleric or even Straight Fighter if you're a member of the Order of Paladins?) whereas in Spycraft you are a Hero, maybe your a little better shot, or a better at driving etc - you're not an Archetype you're a character.

D20 Modern also uses archetypes, though their not quite as obvious. It's difficult to make a Strong Hero without ending up with "Melee Smash" or the like, the classes seem more limiting in that than in Spycraft.

Regardless, I'm here late in the day and you've made your decision. Enjoy your game.

 

[Morgenstern]

And this is why I like d20 Modern.

That seems odd to me, but there's certainly no arguing with it . Best I can offer is at least I'm ussually pretty accessible to explain how or why something came to be .

It's great that gamers have a selection of modern RPGs to choose from, eh?

Total -100%- agreement . My shelves are loaded with games and I'm always on the prowl for more.

 

[The Shaman]

That seems odd to me, but there's certainly no arguing with it .

What is "cool" with a high "sheer glee factor" to you is too over-the-top for me and the style of game that I enjoy. Lemme attempt to 'splain...

"Cinematic" describes both Charlie's Angels and The Bourne Identity, but I hope we would agree that they are very different movies. "...Boom Stick" is much closer in feel and execution to the former than the latter, IMHO, and that's not what I'm looking for in a roleplaying game.

In my games shotguns don't blow doors off hinges - they blow holes in them instead. The wounded don't go flying through the air - they fall where they're hit.

Does that help to explain my preference a bit more?

Best I can offer is at least I'm ussually pretty accessible to explain how or why something came to be .

Most appreciated!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

...And if you think we didn't put a whole lot of thought into feat names, I'll point out that with only two exceptions (from late edits I didn't catch), EVERY SINGLE FEAT CHAIN IN THE BOOK is in alphabetical order.
Every Basics -> Mastery -> Supremacy chain.

...and all the ones with seemingly irregular names...

Driving Instincts -> Professional Driver - Closed Course.

Except this one. Unless you have a different alphabet than I do.

But the concept is pretty clever