D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[mcrow]

The flavor and style of SC2 is part of what makes it a cool game IMO.

It also has some really cool mechanics for chases and the like. I like armor as DR, and I know you can adapt d20 modern to use DR.

I think SC2 would make a great base for a matrix style game.

Besides the other things I have said that I don't like about d20 modern, I think it's a little boring. It just doesn't make me excited to make a character the same way as SC2 does.

 

[Armistice]

Re: HeapThaumaturgist vs. Jim Hague...if that is as heated as it gets I'll count myself lucky especially after 7 pages. I don't think anyone was deliberately trying insult anyone. I've found that especially over the internet it is best to cultivate a thick skin and a forgiving attitude. We're still good.

Here's where preference comes in for me. My gamers' preferred playstyle is action adventure blockbuster. Occasionally they will enjoy a more sedate session. Otherwise they prefer to be action heroes, especially if they are forced to tolerate a setting without magic. For myself, running that type of adventure is easier and more fun for me using Spycraft.

That being said, often the issues I find being brought up against Spycraft seem to be holdover's from the 1st edition of the game. Conversely d20 Modern's detractors often don't take into account that because of the huge popularity of the system, many 'issues' with d20 Modern are literally a single high quality .pdf away from a fix. Frex, I couldn't see how to make a legitimate 'Big Screen Martial Artist' with d20 Modern until I purchased Blood & Fists. I firmly believe that d20 Modern's best argument is the sheer volume of quality supplements available for it.

My preference is Spycraft because of the aforementioned play style and the fact that barring far-future and high-fantasy, I have been able to realize any game I would play with my players straight out of the core book. Campaign Qualities & Npc Creation are icing on the cake.

 

[Morgenstern]

Except this one. Unless you have a different alphabet than I do.

But the concept is pretty clever

Professional Driver - Closed Course is the name of a single feat, not me leaving out an arrow between two feats . It's the little message you see at the bottom of car commercials when they are out doing their immaculately perfect stunts that you really shouldn't try at home .

 

[mcrow]

part of the problem here is maybe some posters are comparing core book vs core book while others are comparing core books+PDFs+supplements(d20 modern) vs core book(SC2).

I think if I were to pick up a couple PDFs, I could make d20 modern do almost all of what like about SC2.

 

[Gundark]

Spycraft 2 is light years ahead of d20 modern. while it is a bit crunch heavy, it makes the actual running of the game quick and smooth...not to mention prep time is cut significantly

 

[AscentStudios]

Cool! I got name dropped by Psion! Now I'll have to say, "Spycraft can still do low level movie superspy action, no matter what Alan Kohler thinks!"

RE: The issue of flexibility of d20M vs. Spycraft 2.0

From my desktop:

Charismatic Hero
Charismatic Heroes survive not by the strength of their arm or the force of their will, but by their appearance, vast resources, and ability to get along with (or manipulate) others. Common archetypes of the Charismatic Hero include celebrities, con men, femme fatales, kingpins, politicians, salesmen, and smugglers.
Vitality: 1d10 + Con modifier per level.
Starting Weapon Proficiencies: 3

Class Skills
The Charismatic Hero’s class skills are Blend, Bluff, Bureaucracy, Cultures, Drive, Falsify, Impress, Manipulate, Networking, Profession, Sense Motive, and Streetwise.
Skill points at 1st level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill points at each additional level: 6 + Int modifier.

Core Ability
Charismatic: When you roll an action die to add to the result of a Charisma-based check, you roll 2 dice instead of one. Further, once per round at your initiative count, you may spend 1 action die and target a special NPC or standard NPC type. You may immediately make an Impress/Influence, Impress/Persuasion, Intimidate/Domination, Manipulate/Slander, or Networking/Endorsement check against this target as a free action. The effects of this check and any disposition changes that may result last until the end of the scene.

Class Abilities
Knack: At Levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19, you gain one Charismatic Knack of your choice.
Bonus Feat: At Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18, you gain a bonus feat from the Chance or Style trees.
+1 Charisma: At Levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, your Charisma score is increased by 1.​

and a Knack Tree:

Charm (Charismatic)
You have an undeniably magnetic personality.
Charm I: Impress is always a class skill for you. Further, you gain an insight bonus to Impress checks equal to your Charm Tier.
Charm II: When you are the Prey in a seduction, the Lead is increased by 1. When you are the Predator in a seduction, the Lead is reduced by 1 (see Spycraft 2.0, page XX).
Charm III: You gain the captivating NPC quality.
Charm IV: Before Strategies are chosen during each Conflict round of a seduction, you may force your opponent to choose a different Strategy than he chose during the last round. This ability may not be used if he has no other option available to him. When you use this ability, you must also choose a different Strategy than you chose during the last round.
Charm V: Once per session when you tell 1 lie to any NPC, the NPC believes it as truth for a number of minutes equal to your Charismatic level. After this time, the target may begin to question the lie, depending upon the current circumstances (and per the GC’s discretion). This ability may not support any statement the target absolutely knows to be a lie (e.g. “the sky is green” when it’s a clear day and you’re both outdoors).
If you use this ability on a special character of equal or higher career level, the special character may make a Will save (DC 10 + your Charismatic level). With success, he sees through your deception when it’s presented.
​

While it may not be for everybody, this project certainly will offer those looking for looser class structure (and, I like to think, some cool new takes on the Modern SRD's concepts) the ability to use Spycraft all they like

 

[Psion]

Cool! I got name dropped by Psion!

Yeah, there's a feat.

 

[AscentStudios]

Yeah, there's a feat.

OK, challenge taken.

Name Dropped by Psion
Your affiliation with one of ENWorld's high priests garners you favor with its faithful.
Prerequisites: Post count 50+, Profession (Game Designer) 8 ranks, Reputation 25 or higher.
Benefits: You gain 5 Reputation/$250,000 Net Worth. Further, you gain a +1 bonus to all Impress checks targeting characters with the ENWorld allegiance. Finally, once per session as a free action, when making an opposed skill check against an NPC with the ENWorld allegiance, you may call upon your positive review from Psion. You may roll the check twice, keeping the result you prefer.

Happy?

 

[Jim Hague]

My humble and heartfelt appo-polo-logies, droog.

There goes the happy-shiny feeling of the thread. The brotherhood. The camaraderie. The LOVE. Why can't we all just get along? Etc, etc, e pluribus unum, yadda yadda, ad infinitum.

What I was pointing out was that, in general, the "deadliness" of VP/WP is, by and large, mitigated by the effective neutering of standard NPCs by keeping them from bypassing VP and hitting directly to WP.

As opposed to, say, SWRPG where your random Stormtrooper could "accidentally" give a PC the bosh with a lucky crit with a blaster rifle.

I wasn't taking a whizz on your beloved system, nor rabidly defending the tarnished honor of my girlfriend D20Modern.

Wow, that was ...mature. As for you bashing SC 2, well, your own words speak for themselves, I think - words like 'neutered' and 'Anyway, I'm going to get back to dismantling Spycraft 2.0 and rewriting the good parts for Modern.'. Naw, that's not loaded language at all.

That you like the "Step 1" is great fun for you and yours. I didn't bring it up. That we know what John P. Mook had for lunch and that his deepest fear is not being liked by others and that's why he groups with at least (Number Of PCs x2) Minions of his same stats is ... great. I wouldn't call him emotionally or role-playing-perspectively neutered. Didn't say that's what I thought, though, did I?

Standard NPCs are there to be an annoyance. They have a Damage Save to speed up how fast the PCs can knock them down. They can't crit without a specific attribute that represents a "contract killer, trained assassin" or the like (I.E., everybody shouldn't have it). The SWAT team might come in with 1d10+1 SMGs, but the PCs average d10s on VP, as well.

Morg responded to this quite ably, including your rather puzzling dismissal of things like Campaign qualities. But hey, why bring reality into this, right? Never mind that something like Fragile makes those 1d10+1 SMGs loom large. Nope, let's not bring accursed facts into this. Because that would mean acknowledging it's simply a difference in preferences, instead of your snide denigration.

Not that it's bad. Not that the game isn't a shining jewel amidst the bric-a-brac upon one's gaming shelf. Just that, on the average, the NPCs don't go around bumping off the PCs ANYWAY ... so while the system uses VP/WP and the GM gets Action Dice, it doesn't mean we crank up "Bodies" unless the PCs have buckets of multi-benefit feats.

It means the multi-benefit feats are a SpyCraft convention because that's the style of play it adheres to. The PCs are meant to be very capable action heroes of high class and caliber. Sort of James Bonds. (If I get a chance to be on the player side of the fence, I want to play a Russian Pointman/Faceman with "Style Over Caliber" and "Bloodstain Resistant" and a PSM.) James Bond doesn't get gunned down by the Kalishnakov-toting Ruskies, he runs through the library while they blow all of the books to fluttering scraps around him.

--fje

Again, see Morgenstern's response - you're making a narrow little assumption here, and I'm sure you know what assumptions lead to. I never bashed D20 Modern (though I make no secret of disliking the system), but you can't seem to construct a civil argument that actually addresses the Spycraft system, choosing instead resorting to cheap snarkery and a One Way attitude that's going nowhere. You're sticking to guns that have no ammunition, Heap. Campaign Qualities alone blow the arguments you're making out of the water - namely that SC 2 is stuck with a single style of play. Perhaps you missed the genre suggestions in the book?

You don't like the game? Super. There's D20 Modern right there on the shelf for you. But don't sit there and go all ad absurdum when discussing SC's merits and flaws. It's just plain dumb.

 

[2WS-Steve]

OK, challenge taken.

Name Dropped by Psion
Your affiliation with one of ENWorld's high priests garners you favor with its faithful.
Prerequisites: Post count 50+, Profession (Game Designer) 8 ranks, Reputation 25 or higher.
Benefits: You gain 5 Reputation/$250,000 Net Worth. Further, you gain a +1 bonus to all Impress checks targeting characters with the ENWorld allegiance. Finally, once per session as a free action, when making an opposed skill check against an NPC with the ENWorld allegiance, you may call upon your positive review from Psion. You may roll the check twice, keeping the result you prefer.

Happy?

I think I'd be happy to forego the reputation and just take the $250k net worth