d20 Modern Reboot: What Would You Want to See?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If someone were to reboot d20 Modern, what would you want to see in it?

I would like to see the following types of changes:

Gun combat
*Guns need to do scaling damage. Melee Smash and advancing Strength let you increase damage markedly, at least in the lower levels, but there are very few options for firearms. (And many of them are equipment-based.)
*Autofire needs to be ... better somehow. Save DCs need to scale at the very least. (The DC could start at lower than 15. It's not underpowered at low levels.)
*There needs to be a few new options for gunnery to make it a bit more interesting. There's no cover fire, pinning down, and no damage-increasing options for snipers.

Non-lethal Damage
*Just copy 3.x. Done.

Talents
*Generally the mental talents need a better explanation. The designers had to tell me what the Plan talent does on their messageboard because the game explanation wasn't sufficient. I've basically come up with a definition of the Intuition talent for myself... I have no idea how it was playtested.
*Some mental talents need to be a little better, at least at lower levels.
**Dazzle takes too many actions for what you get out of it.
**Taunt is possibly overpowered (due to the high save DCs).
**Inspiration is only useful if you have a Charisma of 14+ (expected) and at least 4 levels (a little too weak, IMO) since (IMO again) it's only useful if you can buff 2 allies for two rounds (it takes 1 full round to use). Greater Inspiration, as written, is nearly useless, since it takes an extra round. (I've house-ruled to just give an additional +1 bonus.)

Feats
*I love Frightful Presence. The save DC is a bit high though at the higher levels. But my player characters love using it for "face-stabbing", as they call it.

Balance
*Melee ends up being better than ranged combat. There's many more melee options, especially when it comes to cranking damage.
**A Strong Hero 5 with Strength 16 can, with one feat (Archaic Weapons Proficiency) dish out 2d6+7 damage a hit at no penalties to attack rolls (indeed, with the highest possible attack bonus). That's an average of 14 damage right there.
**The only way to spec out a ranged character to do the same damage is to take a 2d10 rifle and Soldier. (A Strong Hero 3/Soldier 2 could do 2d10 + 2 damage a hit, an average of 13.) A "fully specced" melee warrior, using just core rules, with a starting Strength of 15, could go Strong 5/Soldier 8 and dish out 2d6+13 damage a hit (average 20) while a "fully specced" ranged soldier could only do 2d10+4 without using the risky Burst Fire feat.
*Defense can get excessive, although it often seems very high numbers come about by accident. A Strong 2/Fast 2/Soldier 2 with Dex 14 and a light-duty vest has a Defense of 24 in the rules... at 6th-level. He'd have an attack bonus of +7 with the weapon he has Weapon Focus in. That's a bit of a mismatch. (Said NPC was designed with skills in mind, but ended up with an extraordinarily high Defense.)

Base Classes
*Tweak the Fast class Defense bonus. I trimmed the lower end but left the higher level bonuses the same to discourage single-level dipping.
*The Charismatic class should get Sense Motive as a class skill. A little spreading of skill points overall would be nice.

Advanced Classes
*The Gunslinger needs a rework. It has a pretty low BAB; I'm a little tired of seeing "gunslingers" going Strong and nothing else (for the accuracy and extra attacks), even taking talents like Melee Smash that have nothing to do with their character concept.
**IMO it either needs full BAB or (probably a better option) a small (max +3) level-based bonus to ranged attacks. Free Weapon Focus isn't enough.
**Furthermore it needs a damage bonus for skilled shots. At present there's no bonus until 10th-level, but then you get a huge bonus... which costs action points. I'd rather see something smaller and scaling without costing that many resources. It also does not need to get 1d10 hit points per level. They shouldn't be as tough as Soldiers IMO. 1d8 is plenty.

Weapons
*IMO guns should be simplified a little bit. There's no need to have 2d10 and 2d8 automatic rifles in the same game.
*For some reason, grenades seem like they're overpowered IME. I'm not sure why, but battles go a lot more smoothly with my new group, which doesn't use grenades.
*IMC guns don't grant melee opportunity attacks unless the PC spends a feat on it (I hate useless rolls; if you've specced for ranged combat, you're probably going to miss and do lame damage anyway). Although it's possible the rules actually prevent this but if so, they're not clear.

A complete revision of Wealth. The Profession skill is so "broken", not in the sense that it's overpowered (it definitely isn't) but because motivating PCs becomes very difficult when they can get money for nothing.
**Except in d20 Future, which had equipment and various other bonuses as a massive muddled mess. I actually returned it, it was so bad.
*IMO PCs should start with more Wealth. PCs don't need houses and cars to start, but they tend to go bankrupt just buying guns and armor. But after that Wealth should only go up with RPing or adventuring.
*IMO they should go back to Alternity's take on things. In d20 Modern, there are no "expenses" so PCs can just sit back and get money for nothing. No one pays rent, at least not IME, since Wealth only goes down if you make big purchases, and you only need to do that at campaign start (there's no Wealth sinks†). There's no space for a dirt-poor hard-boiled detective who needs jobs in order to make ends meet. Obviously there's no need to keep track of how much PCs are spending on hamburgers or something; Alternity had a "lifestyle" cost system to take care of this. I don't like Shadowrun rules much, but they had a similar lifestyle system which could (and did) allow PCs to be anything from scrabbling for money to (if you were a lion shaman, say) having a much-above-average lifestyle.
†Any sinks that exist are easily avoidable. Who needs to spend money on hospitals when you've got a medic? He's getting paid a part of the mission proceeds anyway, and being your friend shouldn't have any problem healing you for free. (It's not like he pays you to shoot at the bad guys and therefore save his life.) The only cost is an occasional refill of the Surgery kit, much less suspicious than showing up at the hospital with an "accidental" three 5.56 mm bullet wounds.
*The random amount of lost Wealth when purchasing needs to go, IMO.

Settings
*Only "good" settings please. This means no Sunnydale settings.

Vehicular Combat
*I don't like the ruleset they have there. The scaling is, for lack of a better term, "all wrong". Vehicular and personal combat aren't the same thing, so they don't need to use the same scale. You also shouldn't try to use maps; there's just too much area to cover.
*Running someone over is too powerful -- something you can't pull off in a city (you'll be arrested), but in a warzone? In one adventure, I had to move NPCs into buildings because otherwise they'd get hit, and at the very least have to spend an action getting back up!
*Spycraft's vehicular combat rules are much more fun. I just stole them; they fit right in, as long as you ignore any reference to the Wheelman (or whatever) class (which was the only way to use the more interesting techniques).
*I don't know why this is, but I can never get the hit points right. One system made cars too easy to trash, the other made them too difficult.

Action Points
*My players requested APs be useable after you make a roll. They didn't like the recharge per level rule, and I didn't like how they stack up over levels (PCs never seem to use them). I'm considering letting APs apply to Defense and even damage.

 

[Greg K]

I would like to see the following types of changes:

Gun combat
*Guns need to do scaling damage. Melee Smash and advancing Strength let you increase damage markedly, at least in the lower levels, but there are very few options for firearms. (And many of them are equipment-based.)
*Autofire needs to be ... better somehow. Save DCs need to scale at the very least. (The DC could start at lower than 15. It's not underpowered at low levels.)

I am actually not a fan of melee smash scaling. I think they should have had other options.

*There needs to be a few new options for gunnery to make it a bit more interesting. There's no cover fire, pinning down, and no damage-increasing options for snipers.

There was a sniper advanced class. It was in Urban Arcana (or its web enhancement).

Among various prerequisites were Concentration 4 ranks, and the feats Dead aim and Far Shot

Class Abilities included:
Massive Shot: Increase the DC save for massive damage
Improved Dead Aim: increases the circumstance bonus for aiming
Improved Far Shot: doubles the range of increment.
Center Mass: reduces the penalty for cover by 4
Windage: spend an action point to reroll a miss w/ a +1 bonus
Critical Shot: When using Dead, spend an action point and take a -8 hit penalty. A hit becomes an automatic critical regardless of the threat range of the weapon

However, I agree there should be some more options.

Base Classes
*Tweak the Fast class Defense bonus. I trimmed the lower end but left the higher level bonuses the same to discourage single-level dipping.

This is why I like how 4e handles save (ok defense) bonuses. Everyone uses the same progression with your initial class giving you a bonus. No further bonus for multiclassing.

*The Charismatic class should get Sense Motive as a class skill. A little spreading of skill points overall would be nice.

I knew I forgot something. I want more skill points (minimum of 4+int per level)

Advanced Classes
*The Gunslinger needs a rework. It has a pretty low BAB; I'm a little tired of seeing "gunslingers" going Strong and nothing else (for the accuracy and extra attacks), even taking talents like Melee Smash that have nothing to do with their character concept.
**IMO it either needs full BAB or (probably a better option) a small (max +3) level-based bonus to ranged attacks. Free Weapon Focus isn't enough.

A bonus to ranged attacks

Vehicular Combat

As mentioned in my reply to the OP, I like Hot Pursuit, but we agree something needs to be done.

Action Points
*My players requested APs be useable after you make a roll. They didn't like the recharge per level rule, and I didn't like how they stack up over levels (PCs never seem to use them). I'm considering letting APs apply to Defense and even damage.

Have you seen the Hero Point rules for Mutants and Masterminds 2e? It feels very action hero oriented.

 

[Greg K]

2. Increased use of talent trees, ala SWSE. A lot of AdC's, and even PrC's in d20 Modern could be folded into a single talent tree.

Agreed

3. Elimination of the "D&D in the modern day" assumptions in most of the settings presented (Shadow Stalkers, Urban Arcana).

Yeah, I didn't mind having Shadow Stalkers or Urban Arcana. However, I did not like the use of D&D versions of monsters. I

4. Elimination of vancian magic. It's a sacred cow in D&D, but that's D&D and this is a modern-day game. More low-key magic, not running down main street throwing fireballs and lightning bolts.

I agree with eliminating vancian magic. However, imo, throwing fireballs and lightning bolts depends on the setting and should be there as an option.

5. Adding the level-based damage bonus from SWSE. Add half your heroic/PC-class level to the damage on all successful attacks.

Personally, I would like to see level limited to when you get new things, BAB, skills, feats, talents, save bonuses and hit points (although my preference is a set number of hit points based on Con or getting rid of hit points all together)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There was a sniper advanced class. It was in Urban Arcana (or its web enhancement).

It was a prestige class. I'm familiar with it. It was lame. Why based a rifle-using character on the pistol-using Gunslinger? Why does the Sniper have Close Quarters Shot? And there weren't enough damage options either.

One thing I've used for my campaign is let snipers use "Double Tap" (same feat, but different flavor to approximate a better shot). Alas, the best way to pull of a sniper in the core rules is a Fast/Dedicated/Soldier combo, which doesn't have a great attack bonus.

Unfortunately the balance of a sniper is a razor's edge. You can make a PC have a really good first shot, but if that ends the encounter right there it's overpowered. On the other hand, you might have the PC waste several rounds setting up a proper sniper shot for not nearly enough payoff.

Have you seen the Hero Point rules for Mutants and Masterminds 2e? It feels very action hero oriented.

I've played it a few times, but don't even remember how they were used.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I've played it a few times, but don't even remember how they were used.

M&M Hero Points do several things:

1. Power various feats that require one. Examples include Inspire (full-round, give [Charisma bonus] allies +1 to +5 to all attacks, checks, and saves [including Toughness] for 1 round), Ultimate Effort (choose one roll when taking the feat; spend a hero point to get a numeric 20 instead of your d20 roll; does not count as a natural 20), and Beginner's Luck (get to have 5 ranks in any one skill for the rest of that scene). Stuff that's awesome and useful but would be way too powerful without a hefty activation cost.
2. Re-roll any die roll before you know the result.
3. Heroic feat - acquire a feat for 1 round, excluding Fortune feats (which need Hero points to activate).
4. Recover - make a check to recover from damage or condition.
5. Inspiration - once per session, when stuck, spend 1 to get a (useful) clue from the GM.
6. Dodge - Get a big bonus to Defense for 1 round.
7. Cancel Fatigue - you can use "extra effort" to do cool stuff but gain a level of fatigue. Hero Points can be spent at any time to remove a level of fatigue.
8. Escape Death - automatically stabilize.
9. Instant Counter - attempt to counter other powers as a reaction.
10. Edit the scene - have herbicide in the lab where you're fighting Plant Man: the Man-Plant Monster, and similarly useful changes that give your hero a better chance.

Hero Points are gained by being heroic, suffering setbacks (i.e. getting a worst result on a skill check or save, waking up captured, being trapped in a torture chamber, etc.), being subjected to GM-fiat, having a predetermined Complication (enemy, rival, sickly aunt, secret identity, etc.) come into play, doing cool stunts with your character's abilities, good role-play, and because your GM thinks you need one.

Good stuff, and they add a lot to any game they are used in.

 

[Greg K]

I've played it a few times, but don't even remember how they were used.

You start the adventure with a hero point (extra for a feat) and gain more as the adventure continues. You gain hero points for the following:
1. Setbacks: a significant setback resulting in the worst possible result (e.g. jumping across rooftops, failing the roll and falling to the ground), a failed save vs. a mind control drug

2. Having a character Complication come into play (e.g., physical disability, a mental limitation (e.g, obsession, fear, berserk), prejudice, a rival or enemy showing up) that causes a setback.

3. Self sacrafice: Perform a heroic action that is self sacraficing

4. Roleplaying: anything from entertaining the players, giving a rousing speech or great description of your characters actions

5. Pulling of a spectacular action

6. GM fiat (there is a list of specific uses)

Using Hero Points: You can use them to
1. Reroll a failed roll before you know the result (add +10 if the original roll was less 10) and keep the better roll

2. Duplicate a feat for which you meet the pre-requisites

3. Double Dodge bonus

4. Cancel Fatigue (including from Extra effort: see below)

5. Recovery to shake off
a. stunned or fatigued
b. reduce exhausted to fatigued
c. make a recovery from damage (*cough* healing surge *cough*)

6. automatically avoid death
7. gain a clue or insight
8. dramatic editing based on the environment (with GM approval)

Extra Effort (once per round results in fatigue at the start of the next round. If the character is fatigued, they become exhaused, if they are exhausted, they become unconcious). Extra effort allows the following:
a. an immediate +2 to ability or skill check
b. double strength to determine the hero's carry capacity for a round
c. make an extra Will save
d. an extra standard or move action for one round
e. gain a bonus to damage for one round
f. if using fx, bumps up the power for one round

 

[Greg K]

I see ValhallaGH beat me to it, but I will leave my post. It gives a little more detail on some things.

Oh and my post describing hero points reminded me that I would like M&M extra effort (see my post above).

 

[Greg K]

Delete this

 

[Greg K]

Btw, my second option for a revised d20 Modern would be to simply take True20 Revised and make the following changes (which is what I will now do when I need a class/level system rather than Savage Worlds):

1. add Mutants and Masterminds's Complications

2. change Conviction acquisition per level to how Hero Points are acquired in Mutants and Masters (start w/1 per adventure and gain more through out the adventure)

3. Feats:
a. change the fiddly feats (e.g., Accurate Attack and Power Attack)

4. Powers: Change the power system to actual skill and feats as per Psychic's Handbook (also by True20/Mutants and Masterminds creator, Steve Kenson).

The only downside is there is no True20 specific versions of Mars, Sidewinder: Recoiled, Thrilling Tales or the "Blood and [x]" (excluding Blood and Fists)

 

[1Mac]

I'd love to see the SWSE rules in use for the "new" d20 modern.

e20. It's even being designed by the main Saga Edition dude.