D20 Modern Vs. Spycraft

[Word]

I requested a book to play Spycraft outside of the spy setting. I.E. for expanded rules to play as regular people with the rule set. I got a response to watch Fall 2003 for a product that would address that request..

If that's the book I think it is (Alex?), I've seen some of it and it's really a very cool item. Starting saving your pennies, kids.

word,
Will

 

[teitan]

My take on this whole thing is that people take it way to seriously.

Now then to get down to it...

if you want to play a spy game or something similar go ahead and use spycraft, you will find it eaiser to get you character to James Bond level of ability withut going over 20 levels because this game is designed to emulate James Bond and Mission Impossible type action movies where the archetypes of these types of stories come from. You can do the Saint or Avengers or Battle of the Planets/G-Force with this system quite easily. This game is very much a genre book though and can be limited in some ways. Very stylish though and I thoroughly love this book.

Now D20 Modern is not a genre based system, but it is more "generic" in it's goals. You can emulate action movies, or Indiana Jones or pretty much anything you can imagine with some deftness and quite easily (I am using it for my next campaign, a pulp adventure series with modified Action Points system). The system will allow you to do more with creative use of Action Points and it really is a great shot at making a near classless level based system as any. Not very restrictive at all after a few levels and you have to take into account you are creating a starting character and not Ethan Hunt or game breaking James Bond. D20 Modern is especially good at emulating Television shows like Buffy or Alias as well as Indiana Jones, but Doc Savage is purely in the realm of Mutants & Masterminds methinks.

Jason

 

[Blacksad]

Now D20 Modern is not a genre based system, but it is more "generic" in it's goals. You can emulate action movies, or Indiana Jones or pretty much anything you can imagine with some deftness and quite easily.
Jason

Sherlock Holmes or any private-eye game? (Nestor Burna)
Cops games, similar to private-eye games?
Michel Vaillant or any Car Race?
Survival against the elements (think the beginning chapter in White Fang)?
Modern War (Indochine/Vietnam) ?

If you want to do any of the setting above in a manner that favor wits instead of charge, you'll be cumbered by the vehicle rules, weaons rules or conditions effect rules.

d20 Modern would be best described as d20 Action, and it does it well, but do not say that it can do any modern setting (unless you restrict yourself to TV series).

 

[dpmcalister]

My take on this whole thing is that people take it way to seriously.

But isn't that whole point?

if you want to play a spy game or something similar go ahead and use spycraft, you will find it eaiser to get you character to James Bond level of ability withut going over 20 levels because this game is designed to emulate James Bond and Mission Impossible type action movies where the archetypes of these types of stories come from. You can do the Saint or Avengers or Battle of the Planets/G-Force with this system quite easily.

Agree with you so far...

Now D20 Modern is not a genre based system, but it is more "generic" in it's goals. You can emulate action movies, or Indiana Jones or pretty much anything you can imagine with some deftness and quite easily (I am using it for my next campaign, a pulp adventure series with modified Action Points system). The system will allow you to do more with creative use of Action Points and it really is a great shot at making a near classless level based system as any. Not very restrictive at all after a few levels and you have to take into account you are creating a starting character and not Ethan Hunt or game breaking James Bond. D20 Modern is especially good at emulating Television shows like Buffy or Alias as well as Indiana Jones, but Doc Savage is purely in the realm of Mutants & Masterminds methinks.

This is where I disagree with you . If you want Indiana Jones with Spycraft, buy The Hand of Glory. Indeed, the same supplement gives the Explorer base class which allows for Lara Croft-type characters (The Hand of Glory are a prefect organisation to test Indy's mettle though). If you want pulp adventures wait for the decade books that are being released later this year. Alias can be easily done using just the standard rules, although I agree that Buffy would require a little work.

Reading between the lines, you'll probably come to the conclusion that I prefer Spycraft. I do, but d20 Modern has some good points. Unfortunately, from my point of view, it came out too long after Spycraft. AEG stole a lot of ground from WotC there...

 

[teitan]

Sherlock Holmes or any private-eye game? (Nestor Burna)
Cops games, similar to private-eye games?
Michel Vaillant or any Car Race?
Survival against the elements (think the beginning chapter in White Fang)?
Modern War (Indochine/Vietnam) ?

If you want to do any of the setting above in a manner that favor wits instead of charge, you'll be cumbered by the vehicle rules, weaons rules or conditions effect rules.

d20 Modern would be best described as d20 Action, and it does it well, but do not say that it can do any modern setting (unless you restrict yourself to TV series).

I beg to differ, as with any game it requires some tweaking to max it out to your best advantage but not so much that you require a completely new genre rulebook. Want to get around the vehicle rules? Not as hard you would imagine and I rarely use vehicle combat rules anyway. I don't see any problems in the weapon rules or the conditions effect rules that can't be EASILY tweaked to fit what you want to do.n SO yes, the genres you mention can be played out.

Don't get me wrong, I love Spycraft and think it is an AWESOME sourcebook as is, and I am sure the other supplements are great for it, but I also think that D20 Modern is better at multi-genre than Spycraft because it is multi-genre out of the box and doesn't require other sourcebooks like the mentioned Hand of Glory. When I buy D20 Modern I get everything I need to play ANY genre out of the initial 40 dollar investment whereas with Spycraft I have to shell out 35 for the main book and plus for the extras if I want to run Indiana Jones, Doc Savage et al. I am not knocking Spycraft though because it oozes cool and suave and cinematic like no other game I have seen to date. It's just I can't play more types of games right out of the box with D20 Modern and less of an investment.

Jason

 

[Blacksad]

I beg to differ, as with any game it requires some tweaking to max it out to your best advantage but not so much that you require a completely new genre rulebook.

and why game like alternity or gurps do not need tweaking to work any setting that they are supposed to simulate? are they really exceptional?

Want to get around the vehicle rules? Not as hard you would imagine and I rarely use vehicle combat rules anyway.

uh? So how do you know how much hard it would be to tweak them?

I don't see any problems in the weapon rules or the conditions effect rules that can't be EASILY tweaked to fit what you want to do.n SO yes, the genres you mention can be played out.

if you do not use wound point, I don't see how, and this is a major rule overhaul

Don't get me wrong, I love Spycraft and think it is an AWESOME sourcebook as is, and I am sure the other supplements are great for it, but I also think that D20 Modern is better at multi-genre than Spycraft because it is multi-genre out of the box and doesn't require other sourcebooks like the mentioned Hand of Glory. When I buy D20 Modern I get everything I need to play ANY genre out of the initial 40 dollar investment whereas with Spycraft I have to shell out 35 for the main book and plus for the extras if I want to run Indiana Jones, Doc Savage et al. I am not knocking Spycraft though because it oozes cool and suave and cinematic like no other game I have seen to date. It's just I can't play more types of games right out of the box with D20 Modern and less of an investment.

Jason

I don't claim that spycraft is generic, I just say that d20 Modern isn't generic (even if it is more generic than spycraft).

 

[King of Old School]

Spycrafts magic and psionics systems are not just a retread of D&D.

Not to be a jerk, but ... Spycraft (or at least, my copy of Spycraft) doesn't have any magic or psionics system to speak of.

Shadowforce Archer != Spycraft.

I don't think this is a very fair comparison at all, but if anything it is to the advantage of D20 Modern that you can include these things without investing in a series of overpriced (by your own description) supplements.

KoOS (who likes both games a lot)

 

[teitan]

and why game like alternity or gurps do not need tweaking to work any setting that they are supposed to simulate? are they really exceptional?

uh? So how do you know how much hard it would be to tweak them?

if you do not use wound point, I don't see how, and this is a major rule overhaul

I don't claim that spycraft is generic, I just say that d20 Modern isn't generic (even if it is more generic than spycraft).

I didn't say anything about Alternity or Gurps, the discussion is about D20 Modern v.SPycraft, D20 Modern v. Spycraft, Gurps and Alternity.

Wounds points are not all that different from hit points, they are an illusion that people have put up to create some difference that doesn't exist. In D20 Modern I would only play out a hit as being someone failing their massive damage saving throw equal to their constitution. Otherwise it is the beer bottle over their head in the bar fight getting shot and they wear out energy to charge out of the way. HPs are not any different than WP/VP. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. The massive damage saving throw when played right is as realistic (heh heh heh) as WPs and amounts to pretty much the same thing. Hit points are not how much damage you can take, that was 2E. It's all playing style man.

Jason

 

[Blacksad]

I didn't say anything about Alternity or Gurps, the discussion is about D20 Modern v.SPycraft, D20 Modern v. Spycraft, Gurps and Alternity.

"as with any game it requires some tweaking to max it out to your best advantage"

Wounds points are not all that different from hit points, they are an illusion that people have put up to create some difference that doesn't exist. In D20 Modern I would only play out a hit as being someone failing their massive damage saving throw equal to their constitution. Otherwise it is the beer bottle over their head in the bar fight getting shot and they wear out energy to charge out of the way. HPs are not any different than WP/VP. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. The massive damage saving throw when played right is as realistic (heh heh heh) as WPs and amounts to pretty much the same thing. Hit points are not how much damage you can take, that was 2E. It's all playing style man.
Jason

Because the result are the same, the methods are identics?

It's a problem of description, when a character loose wound point, he is injured. When he loose VP it's fatigue or luck.

With Hit Points, it's much less clear, and every GM will need a method (you are actually hit when you have to make a save, or only the last hit, etc...), With potential silly situation with either method (the guy who survive a major fire, being killed by a torch, or the one who survive 20 bullet hits), even if statistically both methods end with the same result.

PS: if you decide to use wound point, you'll have a hard time to convert the magic, psi and sometimes even the vehicle system.

PPS: if you decide to use the grim and gritty hit points rules, it's going to be even worse, and do not tell me that this method is similar to hit points, or I'll stick my tongue out

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

d20 Modern is good if you want modern D&D style play.

Spycraft is good for any modern/near-future game where the characters are patroned by a huge organization that gives them missions.

I never played Spycraft, and I don´t have the rulebook, but I played D20 Modern. Our Master decided to use a Dark Conspiracy adventure, the Heart of Darkness. I don`t know if anyone of you knows it (our master bought if several years ago, but never mastered it because he wasn`t fond with the Dark Conspiracy Ruleset), but the players are part of a organization that gives them missions - the organization is not as huge as the CIA or KGB, so you can`t expect the "cool stuff" like James Bond Aston Martin.
It worked perfectly with D20 Modern, as far as I can tell.

In regard to Wound / Vitality Point -
I do not like it, and I am not unhappy that D20 Modern does not have it. (au contraire, monsieur)
It did not fit in any of the typical movies and series we know - especially the rule on critical in Starwars seemed to be a very stupid idea - (how often do we see a hero being killed by a blaster shot? Never, I think, is the right word for it. And do not tell me that Leia had a fair chance of surviving a critical hit with a Blaster Rifle when she was shot on Endor ...)

The D20 Modern Rule seemed fine with me - the characters have, at any level, a certain risk of being shot down, so it weakens the typical D&D syndrom of having so many hit points that nobody has to fear weaker opponents...

But for the nonlethal damage rule - that does not work, thats true. But I do not know many games where we hadn`t to implement a house rule or two...

Mustrum Ridcully