D20 Modern Vs. Spycraft

[Desdichado]

You're correct that with the Con score being the maximum damage threshold makes it pretty much the same as WP/VP except for healing. You heal WP very quickly. With HP, you have to sit around in hospitals for weeks to get back to full strength.

 

[Kenpo Wolf]

I have both Spycraft and Modern and although I think the Modern book is great, I favor Spycraft because it is supported by AEG which cannot be said for WOTC. Rather then making supplements for Modern, even one every three or four months would be nice, they are always releasing stuff for D&D which is unfair. I know this may sound like I'm whining, but it's one of the reasons I'm angry with WOTC right now

 

[Ranger REG]

I know this may sound like I'm whining, but it's one of the reasons I'm angry with WOTC right now

You know what? I agree with you.

It does sound like you're whining.

(Never leave an opening for me.)

I don't know why you're ranting because of the lack of support for d20 Modern. Wizards have been proactive with regards to making d20 Modern core rulebook for third-party supplements, like Ultramodern Firearms d20 by Charles Ryan (a d20 Modern co-designer). In fact there is a third-party campaign setting for d20 Modern titled Digital Burn on sale now. And if you haven't checked out Dungeon/Polyhedron magazine, there are several mini-games that require the use of d20 Modern (e.g., MECHA CRUSADE).

Did you check out Wizards' d20 Modern web site? There are three adventures you could run, a web enhancement, and a feature article about cover and concealment.

Did you check out The Game Mechanics web site? They offer free material for d20 Modern. Look for "Martial Arts Mayhem" by Rich Redman (another d20 Modern co-designer).

In two or three months, I expect a flood of third-party d20 Modern support to start showing up in store shelves.

Compare to 3e product line, which is simply rehashing old books into 3e rules, d20 Modern will be a refreshing take.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

With HP, you have to sit around in hospitals for weeks to get back to full strength.

This is not completely true. With medical assistance and surgery, you can heal damage much faster than in Standard D&D.

Oh, and don`t forget: If your wound points are up (at least in Starwars), you`re dead, and nothing and nobody can help you now - just roll up a new character. And losing all your wound point may be caused by a lucky (read: critical) hit - you do not even get a save against it...

If you fail your massive threshold check, you are at -1 and dying. Even if you reach -10 and die, a field medic might be able to rescue your life if he is not too late there. (hope there is one in your group, or you have a DocWagon Superplatinum contract )

A very interesting difference between these systems:
Once you begin losing wound points (be at through a critical or because your vitality points are up), you might become weaker (I believe Starwars made you fatigued in this case), but you can still act. This might allow you a retreat, but since you still act, some enemies typically decide to shoot you anyway, just in in case.

In D&D/D20 Modern, if you are at 0 or fewer hitpoints, you begin dying. You can`t retreat (well, at 0, you still can try it), but since you fall down, most enemies tend to ignore you, giving you a chance to stabilize or being healed ...

I thing the D&D/D20 Modern is better, though it might prevent the characters from attempting a retreat.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Apok]

Someone (teitan, iirc) mentioned that the HP system and the Vit/Wound Point systems are essentially the same.

Bollocks.

Try playing D&D using the Vit/Wound system and see how similiar it is, especially at higher levels. I guarantee you that you'll see a sudden surge in the usage of Rapiers, Falchions, the Keen enchantment, and Improved Critical.

It only seems similiar when you compare Modern to Spycraft because both have supporting mechanisms (Massive Damage for Modern and the Action Die crit activator coupled w/ generally low threat ranges for Spycraft) that make them more or less equaly deadly. If these mechanisms were removed, you would find that the Vit/Wound system becomes alot more dangerous.

So, the idea that HP and Vit/Wound are the same is ludicrous. It just so happens that the systems we are discussing have certain rules in place which even them out in terms of lethality.

 

[King of Old School]

Compare to 3e product line, which is simply rehashing old books into 3e rules, d20 Modern will be a refreshing take.

It's ironic that you'd say this in the same post that you promote D20 Ultramodern Firearms -- which is itself a rehash of an old book for the Millenium's End RPG.

In any case, I think it's beyond dispute that Spycraft has been much better supported by AEG than has D20M by WotC and all the third-party publishers put together. Are you really suggesting that a couple of magazine articles and some free web supplements (and Rich Redman's cover and concealment article is just about as useful for Spycraft as it is for D20M) compare to the wealth of material both for the core Spycraft line and the Shadowforce Archer setting? D20M support might pick up in the next 3-6 months but right now it lags sadly behind.

KoOS

 

[Psion]

Not to be a jerk, but ... Spycraft (or at least, my copy of Spycraft) doesn't have any magic or psionics system to speak of.

Shadowforce Archer != Spycraft.

There are alternate rules AVAILABLE for Spycraft for magic and psionics. And sorry, I find your distinction between Spycraft and SFA rather anal. I could pick up any SFA book and use it for Spycraft, just as many people picked up FRCS and used it for their own campaign settings.

I don't think this is a very fair comparison at all,

I beg to differ. One of the central griping points on the d20 forum is that the magic and psionics are a retread of D&D. That's the magic and psionics mechanics . Many people are looking specifically for more feat/skill based psionics, and those alternate rules are AVAILABLE, something that cannot be said in general for d20 modern (unless you count the warden system in the Second World Sourcebook ... and it, too, is based off the D&D magic system as it is designed to work with D&D as well.)

but if anything it is to the advantage of D20 Modern that you can include these things without investing in a series of overpriced (by your own description) supplements.

You are being rather disingenuous by quoting me out of context and in doing so, giving the impression that I said something I did not say. I never said SFA itself was pricey. I said that the softcover supplements pricey. You do not need the supplements that I characterized as expensive to have have access to the SFA magic and psionics system.

 

[Psion]

This is not completely true. With medical assistance and surgery, you can heal damage much faster than in Standard D&D.

Okay, but the same fundamental incongruity inherited from D&D still exists in d20 modern - magic healing is less effective on more heroic characters. This might not be much of a problem since many d20 modern games exclude magic healing. But then, in other ways the problem is worse. At least in D&D, you might have been able to hand-wave off a character's level as heroism. In d20 modern, even ordinaries get HP by level.

 

[Psion]

Someone (teitan, iirc) mentioned that the HP system and the Vit/Wound Point systems are essentially the same.

Bollocks.

I can see why someone might think that. After all, if you take Con points of damage, in either system, you could be in dire straights: in d20 modern you are forced to make a fort save or start dying, while in Spycraft, if you have a threat triggered against you, you will have negative wounds and be dying as well.

But those two circumstances play out very differently. In the former case, triggering the massive damage roll is entirely random, and it doesn't much difference whether mook or megavillain is doing the damage. In the case of Spycraft, the GM has to specifically trigger the threat.

Now which circumstance is better is a matter of taste. The d20 modern approach is more realistic; the Spycraft approach is more heroic. That said, even if realistic is what you want, I would wonder about using escalating HP in the first place.

So once again, which is better is a matter of taste, but I think that Spycraft serves the needs of those who want heroic action better than d20 modern serves the needs of those that want realistic action.

 

[King of Old School]

There are alternate rules AVAILABLE for Spycraft for magic and psionics. And sorry, I find your distinction between Spycraft and SFA rather anal. I could pick up any SFA book and use it for Spycraft, just as many people picked up FRCS and used it for their own campaign settings.

It's not anal at all, it's factual. They are separate products and IMO your wording was disingenuous.

If we're going to use external stuff, I could dig up all kinds of alternate D20 magic systems and drop those into D20M with little to moderate effort but I'm comparing the core products for each.

I beg to differ. One of the central griping points on the d20 forum is that the magic and psionics are a retread of D&D. That's the magic and psionics mechanics . Many people are looking specifically for more feat/skill based psionics, and those alternate rules are AVAILABLE, something that cannot be said in general for d20 modern (unless you count the warden system in the Second World Sourcebook ... and it, too, is based off the D&D magic system as it is designed to work with D&D as well.)

Am I correct in understanding that you think the similarity to D&D is an inherently bad thing?

I'll concede that the comment about the overpriced supplements was not fair, though.

KoOS