d20 with Warhammer flavor?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Here's how I'd do Trollslayers:

Use the basic rules for barbarians, but eliminate Fast Movement and Uncanny Dodge. Instead, Trollslayers get a Natural Armor Bonus equal to their Constitution modifier and +1 for each five additional levels in the class (similar to Monks).

Oh, and of course they may never wear armor.

And becoming a Trollslayer is a one-way street - once you gain a level in this class, you may never take a level in another class.

What do you think?

 

[Hand of Evil]

Interesting...

I feel that grim and gritty can be done with the d20 rule set but grim and gritty does not give WFRP its flavor. It is the world and the detail that was given to it, the game worked around the setting.

Just look at character creation, from the start, the game built in background for your PC, he was not just a fighter, rogue, ranger, cleric, or wizard, he was a grave robber, scribe, pit fighter, rat catcher or such. Then you had the world, yes it was big but WFRP focus on The Empire, they did not give you too much.

Then you have the modules, some of the best ever produced.

 

[mmadsen]

Just look at character creation, from the start, the game built in background for your PC, he was not just a fighter, rogue, ranger, cleric, or wizard, he was a grave robber, scribe, pit fighter, rat catcher or such.

I think you nailed it. The core rulebook managed to fit so much flavor into one book not by providing pages of essays on the Warhammer world, but by integrating evocative details into the text.

Mechanically, I think it would be pretty straightforward to design a good d20 Warhammer game:

• Replace Hit Dice and Hit Points with a Damage Save (as in Mutants & Masterminds).
• Create a series of short Prestige Classes, based on the old Careers, each with a list of Skills and Feats.
• Come up with a new magic system.

 

[Felon]

If I really wanted to be finicky, I could say that the classes would only have 2 or 3 levels each, but there would be a lot of prestige classes.

Don't forget that at least half the party starts as 1st-level commoners--you know, maybe a rat catcher, an apprentice cobbler (2nd class), and a scullery maid. Off to fight the forces of chaos we go Getting into an honest-to-gosh actual PC class like rogue, fighter, or wizard is a major achievement (or dumb luck in character creation).

Seriously, I have to wonder if Green Ronin will actually focus on monstrous PC's. WHFRP only allowed the stock D&D races, which IMO ignored one the major aspects that made WHFB popular. I wanna play a greenskin or a skaven, dammit.

I also want combat to be something that warriors anticipate and relish rather than something to be dreaded and avoided at all costs. That's another quality of WHFB that the RP didn't deliver.

 

[dead]

Hi Joshua,

I'm probably the one who said d20 would ruin the "feel" of WFRP.

OK . . .

You "probably" could capture the flavour of WFRP using d20 . . . after enough changes, additions, more changes, and additional additions to the "core rules" (this is a positive "feature" of d20, I'm told).

But for me, personally, Warhammer would not be the same if d20 "contaminated" it. But remember, this is coming from the guy people call a "d20 hater". (I'm not a d20 hater, though. I love D&D and d20 fantasy derivations [which is, probably, 80% of the d20 market!].) I just get very concerned when d20 encroaches on non-d20 RPG systems that mean a great deal to me.

In my cynical way, I'd like to see the new edition of WFRP make a d100 brand (assuming the new edition still uses d100) and approach WotC to produce a d100 Dungeons & Dragons.

Some people say rules don't matter and that knowing a standard system (I dare not say "generic") helps people ignore rule's crunching and get into the theatrics of story, mood and roleplaying. I disagree, I think that rules can't help but colour the setting and a "pure" version of WFRP will always be "closer" to the "feel" of the Warhammer world than a d20 derivation.

Warhammer d20 may work for you, but to me, by publishing WFRP with d20 rules alternatives, would undermine the power of Warhammer to stand on its own as a great roleplaying game (perhaps this is an ethical issue). But when I play Warhammer, I don't want Feats; I don't want 6 ability scores; I don't want Base Attack and Saving Throws. Even such primary mechanics from the "d20 system" will remind me of D&D because that's where all these things came from.

You probably all think I'm silly and that I'm a philistine but this is just my opinion. Yeah . . . blah, blah, blah . . . everyone get out their acid and flaming torches . . .

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Don't forget that at least half the party starts as 1st-level commoners--you know, maybe a rat catcher, an apprentice cobbler (2nd class), and a scullery maid. Off to fight the forces of chaos we go Getting into an honest-to-gosh actual PC class like rogue, fighter, or wizard is a major achievement (or dumb luck in character creation).

I ran a D20 WHFRP game. PCs started off as NPC classes (mostly expert), using the table from WHFRP and rolling for specifics. After 500 xp they got to move into a genuine PC rated character class.

I used the Grim & Gritty Combat System, and with the Odds rule for spell damage found that it worked well enough.

I halved eperience rewards, and created a bunch of prestige classes for level 6+ arcane spellcasters. Though the Odds rule brought the spell damages into line I was never entirely happy with using D&Ds magic system, but have yet to find a spell point system for D20 that really does it for me in regards to that setting either.

The Auld Grump.

 

[Warmaster_Horus]

I've run a couple of d20 Warhammer campaigns and for the most part the genericness of the d20 system worked to our adventage in making the atmosphere and mood become the dominant force in the campaign. Also one other advantage was that the players were all familiar with d20 and so that some aspects of the game that somewhat depend more on certain rules (ie combat, magic) became faster flowing...

We had to make some adustments to the system though; mostly in the case of certain classes and magic. Here are some of the changes we made:

Got rid of the sorceror and wizard classes all together, and created an arcane spellcasting class that had elements of both... In essence a class that either had Charisma or Intelligence as the primary stat, spell progression of a wizard, instantenous casting ability of a sorceror and spell learning capability of a wizard.

Paladins were mostly limited to Brettonia(aside from certain Knightly Orders within the Empire) and both them and rangers lost their spellcasting ability. The players and I came up with other stuff to replace that loss.

Magic had the most change though... Academy Wizards from the Empire were basicly specialists, though we had to alter the spell lists somewhat(giving amber magicians some druidic/nature spells)... High Elf Wizards had access to all spells aside from necromancy that animated/controlled undead...

Brettonian enchantresses got bonuses to casting enchantments and some nature spells... Dark Magic users got bonuses to damaging spells and necromancy that affected life force... And Chaos Sorcerors... Well they had specialized spell lists. Except for Tzeentch Sorcerors who were generalists wizards who also had a lot of bonuses to their spells.

We had some other changes as well, but the list is kidna long, if you've got questions about how we handled certain stuff, I'll be glad to answer questions.

 

[Felon]

Warhammer d20 may work for you, but to me, by publishing WFRP with d20 rules alternatives, would undermine the power of Warhammer to stand on its own as a great roleplaying game (perhaps this is an ethical issue). But when I play Warhammer, I don't want Feats; I don't want 6 ability scores; I don't want Base Attack and Saving Throws. Even such primary mechanics from the "d20 system" will remind me of D&D because that's where all these things came from.

You probably all think I'm silly and that I'm a philistine but this is just my opinion. Yeah . . . blah, blah, blah . . . everyone get out their acid and flaming torches . . .

I don't think you're a philistine at all, but I would like to see this opinion supported and strengthened into an arguement that I can understand and perhaps appreciate.

I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt here and say I must be missing something. Really, the arguements I hear people making about converting games like Warhammer and Shadowrun could just as easily have been applied to Dungeons & Dragons. What, the thief is now useful in a fight? The cleric can learn to pick locks? The fighter requires as much effort to design as a wizard? And there's a guy who can toss fireballs that doesn't have to lug around a spellbook? That's not the D&D I grew up with!

Of course there are those that can and do argue that the very things I mention facetiously do indeed sacrifice the "feel" of old-school D&D (never mind that overly-restrictive classes that lacked options weren't all that great). But most of us have come to the realization that it's not a matter "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". That statement is based on the false logic that there are only two states: broken and working fine. The truth is, everything can stand some improvement.

D20 has different mechanics than WHFRP had. That means it will have a somewhat different feel. Characters will (hopefully) be more survivable, so people can play it with a bit more conviction and attachment to their characters than they do a single 10mm model in a 200-pt. WHFB battle.

I hope for a WarHammer game where I can actually play Empire knights or elven rangers that relish combat, and dwarven slayers that are actually tough to kill. That would be a drastic improvement over the old game. I would also love to see some support for playing the not-so-good races.

 

[Hand of Evil]

As for mechanics for d20 to become Warhammer?

Start with character creation as basic classes then tie PrC to advancment, EXP are awarded one point at a time and any stat, skill, feat cost EXP to buy (extra if outside PrC). Starting stats would be lower, no 4d6 dropping the lowest. This would be a career path, A takes you to B - C - D (pick one) but D takes you to L - M - N not to the same place C would take you.

Weapon crits I would add +1 to (maybe +2), this means an weapon that does x2 on 19-20 would do x3. Alternate is to increase the range of crit, 19-20 would become 17-20 but it would be one of those play testing things.

Armor would perform Damage Reduction.

Monsters - fear and terror built into. Would have to add details and interesting facts.

 

[NeghVar]

Sounds an awful lot like what Red Spire Press is putting together for Dark Legacies. One of the playtest story threads on the forums mentions quite few of your points.

Dark Legacies: The Adventures of One Playtesting Band, part 1
http://www.redspirepress.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=109

Enjoy!