d20 with Warhammer flavor?

[Desdichado]

Interesting...

I feel that grim and gritty can be done with the d20 rule set but grim and gritty does not give WFRP its flavor. It is the world and the detail that was given to it, the game worked around the setting.

Just look at character creation, from the start, the game built in background for your PC, he was not just a fighter, rogue, ranger, cleric, or wizard, he was a grave robber, scribe, pit fighter, rat catcher or such. Then you had the world, yes it was big but WFRP focus on The Empire, they did not give you too much.

Then you have the modules, some of the best ever produced.

That's partly my point -- the system isn't really that important in terms of flavor, except when the system actively interferes with playing a game that resembles the setting. I also don't think the flavor is important in terms of "you have to have Rat-Catcher be a class, or you don't have the right flavor", I think flavor is more nebulous than that. I think flavor is more about the "fluff" than the crunch, so some minor changes (relatively speaking) can give you the same flavor in more than one system.

As an example, Greyhawk using OD&D, Basic D&D, 1e D&D, 2e D&D or 3e D&D has the same flavor. Dark Sun and Planescape, both using 2e, have very differrent flavors. Sure, there are some setting specific rules here and there, but the rules are a minor component of the flavor. Likewise d20 Call of Cthulhu and d20 Star Wars have vastly different flavors, but use pretty much the same system with only minor differences.

It's my position that system is only 5-10% or so of the equation in terms of creating flavor, and that any system can be tweaked to provide essentially the same flavor. To me, d20 is a perfectly fine vehicle for providing Warhammer flavor.

Then again, as some have mentioned, the Warhammer flavor is a bit on the vague side. WHFRPG and WHFB don't really have the same flavor, despite sharing the same setting. The Gotrek and Felix novels don't really have the same flavor as the Konrad trilogy, for example.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Time for my $0.02...

One of the things I LIKED about WHFRP was that sure, you could choose your overall profession but it still came down to the luck of the roll on where you actually started. If you wanted to play a Wizard you'd pick the Scholar class and roll on that list for starting careers. More often than not you'd get something besides what you really wanted but could then use your career exits to eventually get where you wanted.

I don't think your average D&D player would like such a mechanic. WOTC removed racial limitations and Prime Reqs from all their classes to allow almost unlimited flexibility. Really alignment requirements are the only limiting factor now in basic character generation (Barbarians needing to be Chaotic, Monks being Lawful, Druids being Neutral in some fashion, etc).

The career path system really set WHFRP apart from D&D for me. Doing away with it would make it just a D&D game set in the WHFRP setting.

 

[Desdichado]

Hi Joshua,

I'm probably the one who said d20 would ruin the "feel" of WFRP.

OK . . .

Yes, I think you were.

You "probably" could capture the flavour of WFRP using d20 . . . after enough changes, additions, more changes, and additional additions to the "core rules" (this is a positive "feature" of d20, I'm told).

I'm not sure what putting "everything" in "quotes" like that means for sure -- I'm taking the position that you "could" capture the flavor of WHFRPG using d20 without too many changes at all. And the fact that d20 is modular and can be easily modified -- of course that's a positive feature. How could it not be?

But for me, personally, Warhammer would not be the same if d20 "contaminated" it. But remember, this is coming from the guy people call a "d20 hater". (I'm not a d20 hater, though. I love D&D and d20 fantasy derivations [which is, probably, 80% of the d20 market!].) I just get very concerned when d20 encroaches on non-d20 RPG systems that mean a great deal to me.

No offense, but you sound a lot like the "Chicken Little's" who predicted the end of the world when Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu were given a d20 makeover. Since both of those conversions were well-recieved, and are at least as good as the original systems for capturing the "feel" of the game, if not better in some cases, then this argument is becoming rather tired.

Now, I realise that Ryan Dancey and Wizards of the Coast have never tried to claim that d20 is a "one size fits all" system that can do anything, but the fact that they've tried multiple genres, in some cases quite disparate from D&D, shows that behind closed doors, they do in fact think that it's that capable. To me, Call of Cthulhu was the make or break game. Star Wars and Wheel of Time were broadly enough similar to D&D that using d20 was fine on the surface, and everyone expected it to work. Call of Cthulhu, on the other hand, was a completely different kettle of Deep Ones, and I frankly had my doubts that d20 could pull it off. Now, however, since Call of Cthulhu is, in many ways, in my opinion, a better game for the genre than the original Runequest based BRP game, I've been sold on d20 and it's capabilities.

And frankly, WHFRPG has a lot more in common with D&D than games like Call of Cthulhu, so saying that it can't get the feel right is nonsensical, in my opinion. I think you've give yourself away a little; you said that WHFRPG has a system that means a great deal to you. You like the system, and would be disappointed to see it go away (ignoring for the moment that since it's out of print, and the new book later on will be in a modified WHFRPG system, it's all a moot point anyway.) Also, although you call yourself "not a d20 hater" you also repeatedly purposefully confuse D&D and d20, and clearly want d20 to be contained in the D&D box and not to spill out of that (ignoring for the moment that it has already done so successfully many times.) I can't argue with your position, because it's merely taste, preference and opinion. You think that? Great! More power to you!

However, it's not really a very good discussion, is it? I say, "I believe that d20 can easily be tweaked to give a Warhammer-like flavor" and you say "I don't want Warhammer to be d20, I like it's system fine. d20 is fine for D&D, but it should stay in D&D where it belongs." That really doesn't even address my original comments, and it's kinda besides the point.

In my cynical way, I'd like to see the new edition of WFRP make a d100 brand (assuming the new edition still uses d100) and approach WotC to produce a d100 Dungeons & Dragons.

What's cynical about that? I'd rather say that's hopelessly naive! That system, even if it's updated I suspect, is pretty clunky and archaic. It's hardly going to become the next standard for roleplaying.

Some people say rules don't matter and that knowing a standard system (I dare not say "generic") helps people ignore rule's crunching and get into the theatrics of story, mood and roleplaying. I disagree, I think that rules can't help but colour the setting and a "pure" version of WFRP will always be "closer" to the "feel" of the Warhammer world than a d20 derivation.

I'm one of the people who says that. Sure, a few rules tweaks are important to get the feel of the setting -- you don't want 15th level rangers and 15th level wizards running around in Warhammer, because those classes (for example) are loaded with D&D-isms that would be downright anachronistic in the Warhammer world. But if you think that a less specific definition of d20, which you seem determined to ignore, can't capture that feeling as well or better than the original system, I'll have to point you towards Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu and Sovereign Stone as d20 conversions that worked exactly as intended, which captured the feel and flavor of the genre and speicific setting elements, and which did so at least as well, if not better in many cases, than the original systems.

Warhammer d20 may work for you, but to me, by publishing WFRP with d20 rules alternatives, would undermine the power of Warhammer to stand on its own as a great roleplaying game (perhaps this is an ethical issue). But when I play Warhammer, I don't want Feats; I don't want 6 ability scores; I don't want Base Attack and Saving Throws. Even such primary mechanics from the "d20 system" will remind me of D&D because that's where all these things came from.

It's clearly not an ethical issue, because ... well, because that's ridiculous. What ethics come into play here at all? It's not even a case of me wanting a d20 Warhammer, because I honestly don't. It's a hypothetical question -- if Warhammer were to go d20, could it work as well as the original system? I think the answer to that is "Absolutely yes." It's clear to me that you are more of a "system lover" than me, or than most gamers I know for that matter, and you don't want one game's system leaking over into another or it distracts you. I think that most gamers (although it really doesn't matter what I think most gamers do, but this does apply to me) are rather distracted by wildly different systems that make the system come to the forefront of play rather than the game itself and the setting. Using the same system in multiple genres with minor tweaks makes the system become something I don't even think about at all, letting me focus on what I really came to do: roleplay.

You probably all think I'm silly and that I'm a philistine but this is just my opinion. Yeah . . . blah, blah, blah . . . everyone get out their acid and flaming torches . . .

Not at all, that's a perfectly valid opinion to have. However, my opinion is that your objections are purely based on your taste and preferences and have no reference whatsoever to the capabilities of d20 as a system. And technically, although I don't mind this at all as I'm not a topic Nazi, your entire post is off topic because it doesn't address the question at all -- if one were to want to make a d20 game with a similar feel to Warhammer, how would you do it?

 

[Zappo]

IMO, we have to keep in mind that there are some pretty important differences in style between Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying and Warhammer Fantasy Battle. In WHFB many heroes are very tough, on par with D&D heroes. They kill dragons and devastate armies. In WHFRP, not so; they are normal people for some time and then become just somewhat better than normal people.

So what is the style we're trying to represent? But it doesn't really matter: in both cases, I think that an appropriate D20 variant could do it. A D&D-style game is obviously easy. For a grim'n'gritty WHFRP game, it seems that Grim Tales could provide almost everything you need.

 

[Felon]

IMO, we have to keep in mind that there are some pretty important differences in style between Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying and Warhammer Fantasy Battle. In WHFB many heroes are very tough, on par with D&D heroes. They kill dragons and devastate armies. In WHFRP, not so; they are normal people for some time and then become just somewhat better than normal people.

That was one of the major thrusts of my previous post. If the intended goal of a WHFRP game is to capture the "feel" of WarHammerWorld that players get from all the WHFB material, then I submit that the original RP was a failure. The FB game was entirely about combat, while the RP game was pretty much about avoiding violence at all costs (and generally not being too successful at it). Essentially, the RP designers set you up to play one of the disposable 10mm models that make up a FB unit, with Fate Points being the only thing that distinguished you from ordinary cannon fodder. The end result was not unlike playing CoC or, perhaps a more accurate comparison, Paranoia. That's a design element I'd gladly see dropped from the new version, regardless of whether or not it's d20.

 

[Desdichado]

Although that grim and gritty doesn't really represent Fantasy Battles very well, it's also ingrained in the RP system and is part of its charm. I think it needs to maintain that feel to some extent or risk alienating its existing customer base.

Then again, by making it more closely resemble FB, you potentially get a whole bunch of new customers who are WHFB players.

 

[Felon]

Conan doled out grim n' gritty violence by the bushel. But he could also take it as well as he dished it out. WHFRP characters simply can't take it, mainly because of the crit system. Gotrek must be the luckiest SOB on the planet to never have someone roll a 6 to wound him. Then again, maybe his DM is generous with fate points.

One of the best ways to make combat gritty is to simply curtail healing and nip resurrection in the bud altogether. When there's no wand of cure of light wounds available for 750 gp, people will not take their hit points for granted.

Emulating the MDT rules from D20 Modern is a formula for dead, dead, dead characters. In D20M, combat is mostly ranged, using guns that don't receive any damage bonuses. It's a lot easier to exceed someone's Con score when we're talking about a greataxe with a 1.5 x Strength bonus.

 

[Desdichado]

Oh, it's not that bad. I've been using it for a while in my Robert E Howard/Edgar Rice Burroughs/Pirates of the Carribean melange game. I actually haven't had a PC (at 3rd level, currently) have to make a Fort save yet.

Granted, a failed save isn't instant death in my homebrew, it's instant -1 HPs, which is a big difference. Especially where I'm also using Action Points, and if you spend one, you can instantly stabilize.

 

[Psion]

That was one of the major thrusts of my previous post.

And my initial reply to this thread.

 

[malladin]

One of the design philosophies behind our DarkLore product is to try and capture the flavour of WHFRP.

We've got D20M-like basic classes (except they're a lot more fantasy-ised; Warrior, Thief, Outlander, Scholar, Devout and Destined) and then career paths made up of lots of 3-level career classes.

DarkLore is only $5, and all of our takings go to keeping ENWorld up and running.

We're also a grim 'n' gritty style system, with lower powered magic (and it sends you mad) and more lethal combat (mixture of low damage threshold and an injury system).

There's a number of great reviews on the reviews site here at ENWorld for anyone who's interested.

Cheerio,

Ben, Malladin's Gate Press
www.malladinsgate.com