d20 with Warhammer flavor?

[Desdichado]

It seems like, for whatever reason, there's a lot of products on the market today (or the very near future) that have a Warhammer influence painted pretty strongly on them. It seems to be the latest gaming trend, in a way.

Although DarkLore, from the reviews here, sounds more like Midnight than like Warhammer FRP.

 

[dead]

I'm not sure what putting "everything" in "quotes" like that means for sure

It means I'm not "sure" about something.

I'm taking the position that you "could" capture the flavor of WHFRPG using d20 without too many changes at all. And the fact that d20 is modular and can be easily modified -- of course that's a positive feature. How could it not be?

Without too many changes? Yes, that's "more" positive than a lot of changes, and then more changes, and then a lot more changes.

No offense, but you sound a lot like the "Chicken Little's" who predicted the end of the world when Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu were given a d20 makeover. Since both of those conversions were well-recieved, and are at least as good as the original systems for capturing the "feel" of the game, if not better in some cases, then this argument is becoming rather tired.

I do take offense at being called a "Chicken Little" and saying I think it's "the end of the world." Sorry.

For me, personally, Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu don't "feel" right (whoops, there's the quotation marks again). This is obviously a personal thing. Call it a shortcoming if you will. Just as a side note, however, cause you probably think I'm some rule's lawyer. My game is richly roleplaying based -- I don't allow players to have ANY access to rulebooks when I GM and I only will reference a book infrequently.

I think you've give yourself away a little; you said that WHFRPG has a system that means a great deal to you. You like the system, and would be disappointed to see it go away (ignoring for the moment that since it's out of print, and the new book later on will be in a modified WHFRPG system, it's all a moot point anyway.) Also, although you call yourself "not a d20 hater" you also repeatedly purposefully confuse D&D and d20, and clearly want d20 to be contained in the D&D box and not to spill out of that (ignoring for the moment that it has already done so successfully many times.)

If your d20 changes the core rules enough then, true, it's not like the D&D system. More power to you!

However, it's not really a very good discussion, is it? I say, "I believe that d20 can easily be tweaked to give a Warhammer-like flavor" and you say "I don't want Warhammer to be d20, I like it's system fine. d20 is fine for D&D, but it should stay in D&D where it belongs."

D&D can go anywhere it pleases.

What's cynical about that? I'd rather say that's hopelessly naive! That system [WHFR], even if it's updated I suspect, is pretty clunky and archaic. It's hardly going to become the next standard for roleplaying.

And D&D was never "clunky and archaic"?

It's clearly not an ethical issue, because ... well, because that's ridiculous. What ethics come into play here at all?

Have you heard of monopolization?

I think that most gamers (although it really doesn't matter what I think most gamers do, but this does apply to me) are rather distracted by wildly different systems that make the system come to the forefront of play rather than the game itself and the setting. Using the same system in multiple genres with minor tweaks makes the system become something I don't even think about at all, letting me focus on what I really came to do: roleplay.

True, roleplaying is what all of us are here for and no one wants to be "distracted" by the system. I never am. Although I can "feel" the system underneath, feeling it doesn't distract me. I'm sure I could play d20 Warhammer just fine and have loads of fun but I'm sure it would "feel" better if I played the original. (Also, you may note that the majority of people on that last thread -- the one announcing the new edition of WFRP -- DID'NT want the game to go d20.)

However, my opinion is that your objections are purely based on your taste and preferences and have no reference whatsoever to the capabilities of d20 as a system.

Of course they're based on taste and preference. Almost everything discussed in these forums is.

And technically, although I don't mind this at all as I'm not a topic Nazi, your entire post is off topic because it doesn't address the question at all -- if one were to want to make a d20 game with a similar feel to Warhammer, how would you do it?

I'm sorry, because you directly refered to me I thought that you may have wanted me to respond. Forgive me for my misinterpretation.

 

[dead]

Dark Sun and Planescape, both using 2e, have very differrent flavors. Sure, there are some setting specific rules here and there, but the rules are a minor component of the flavor. Likewise d20 Call of Cthulhu and d20 Star Wars have vastly different flavors, but use pretty much the same system with only minor differences.

Of course these games have a different flavour. They're different genres!

My question is, does the d20 system give them the "tastiest" flavour? But like you say, that's a question of taste. (But, then again, taste and personal preference is another word for opinion.)

It's my position that system is only 5-10% or so of the equation in terms of creating flavor, and that any system can be tweaked to provide essentially the same flavor. To me, d20 is a perfectly fine vehicle for providing Warhammer flavor.

Shock horror, I agree with you. But for me -- sorry, my opinion showing through again (personal taste you call it) -- a non-d20 version would be "more" perfectly fine.

 

[Desdichado]

I do take offense at being called a "Chicken Little" and saying I think it's "the end of the world." Sorry.

I'm sorry too. It's not my intention to cause offense (hence, the phrase "no offense" as I said it) but a lot of discussion that sounded an awful lot like yours was voiced when d20 Star Wars and d20 Call of Cthulhu were announced. Surprisingly enough (or not) the RPG community hasn't suffered any undue hardship that I'm aware of because of the "monopolization" of the d20 system.

For me, personally, Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu don't "feel" right (whoops, there's the quotation marks again). This is obviously a personal thing. Call it a shortcoming if you will. Just as a side note, however, cause you probably think I'm some rule's lawyer. My game is richly roleplaying based -- I don't allow players to have ANY access to rulebooks when I GM and I only will reference a book infrequently.

So, the d6 WEG system, which doesn't really feel like the same genre as the movies, and Call of Cthulhu, which uses the Runequest system do feel right? I think the only reason one could make that argument is inertia. Granted, nobody can qualitatively say that one system is better for the genre than another, but especially in the case of Call of Cthulhu, which uses a system developed for a fantasy RPG roughly equivalent to D&D in the first place -- it simply doesn't really make any sense.

Oh, and I never suspected you were a rules lawyer type of person (and don't really care if you are) I merely suspect that you enjoy systems more than I do. That's fine; plenty of people do. Not so much here, of course, which is focused on D&D and d20, but at rpg.net there's a whole lot of system related discussion. I'm merely pointing this out because I think it's the root of where we disagree.

Have you heard of monopolization?

d20 does not monopolize the industry any more than D&D did, IMO. And even if it did, there's nothing unethical about any practice related to d20 -- it's a freaking free system that any publisher can use under the terms of the Open Game License.

True, roleplaying is what all of us are here for and no one wants to be "distracted" by the system. I never am. Although I can "feel" the system underneath, feeling it doesn't distract me. I'm sure I could play d20 Warhammer just fine and have loads of fun but I'm sure it would "feel" better if I played the original. (Also, you may note that the majority of people on that last thread -- the one announcing the new edition of WFRP -- DID'NT want the game to go d20.)

Neither do I (although the majority of ten or twelve people doesn't mean much anyway) but that's not the point.

Of course they're based on taste and preference. Almost everything discussed in these forums is.

Yes and no. A lot of the discussion is purely taste based discussion, but some of it is not. That seems a bit of a dodge to me, if you don't mind my saying so.

I'm sorry, because you directly refered to me I thought that you may have wanted me to respond. Forgive me for my misinterpretation.

I'm glad you responded, and I've enjoyed talking about this with you. I'm also gratified, so to speak, to have reached some level of understanding (I believe) in terms of you being a person who obviously cares more for system than I do, and in different ways. It doesn't bother me to have elements that resemble D&D in other games, it makes those elements transparent to me because I'm familiar with them.

 

[thatdarncat]

hey, I made my spot check!

kinda cool, I was just on my way to post a scoop about our latest scheduled interview: Green Ronin's Chris Pramas on WHFRP June 16th.

 

[robberbaron]

The main thing I remember about WHFRP was that is wasn't class-based, but profession-based. You could be a Bounty Hunter, for example, who got better at it or who changed to a different "job" as the chance presented itself.

I guess it could be done with Prestige Classes, but I'm getting so tired of all the MinMax PrCs coming out that I'm considering running 3.5 without PrCs at all.

Somehow, I don't think WHFRP 2nd Edition will be d20. Why should it be.
The original meshed nicely with Warhammer Fantasy Battles in that your RP character could take part in a battle with only minor alterations (Possibly only dividing Wounds by 10) and I seriously doubt they'd mess with this.

Also, do you really think GW would use what is effectively a competitor's system?

 

[Desdichado]

Somehow, I don't think WHFRP 2nd Edition will be d20. Why should it be.
The original meshed nicely with Warhammer Fantasy Battles in that your RP character could take part in a battle with only minor alterations (Possibly only dividing Wounds by 10) and I seriously doubt they'd mess with this.

Also, do you really think GW would use what is effectively a competitor's system?

No, of course I don't think that. It's been announced that it will not be d20. And I've said at least three times in this thread that I don't want Warhammer to be d20.

In another thread, before all that was known, some folks asked if it was going to be d20 (a reasonable question, especially since Green Ronin, primarily a d20 company, will be publishing it.) Some other folks thought Warhammer could never work as d20, because it would loose it's feel.

Regardless of the answer to what would happen I took a little bit of exception to the idea that d20 couldn't handle the same feel as Warhammer, hence the starting of this thread, which is concerned with how a d20 game with a Warhammer feel could be achieved. This thread has always been about a hypothetical game that used a d20 system but in which the Warhammer setting would feel right at home.

 

[mmadsen]

If you mean there has to be a crit chart with an exploding entrails entry to have the Warhammer flavor, then d20 won't do it with anything currently in print that I know of (although it wouldn't be hard to whip up a crit chart for d20 to replace the current way critical hits work, I suppose).

A critical hit in Warhammer is not the same thing as a critical hit in D&D. A critical hit in Warhammer is any hit that takes you below zero hit points. Instead of simply becoming disabled and dying (-1 hit point per round until -10), you roll to see, quite graphically, how you were grievously injuried.

 

[dead]

So, the d6 WEG system, which doesn't really feel like the same genre as the movies, and Call of Cthulhu, which uses the Runequest system do feel right? I think the only reason one could make that argument is inertia. Granted, nobody can qualitatively say that one system is better for the genre than another, but especially in the case of Call of Cthulhu, which uses a system developed for a fantasy RPG roughly equivalent to D&D in the first place -- it simply doesn't really make any sense.

I've never played d6 WEG StarWars. I've only played the d20 one and it felt like it didn't work. Who knows? Maybe the d6 WEG version doesn't work either. But this is taste again, I think. As for Cthulhu, I never knew it was based on Runequest and you make a very good point.

d20 does not monopolize the industry any more than D&D did, IMO. And even if it did, there's nothing unethical about any practice related to d20 -- it's a freaking free system that any publisher can use under the terms of the Open Game License.

I disagree here. I know it is a "freaking" free system but that doesn't mean anything. Economics forces game publishers to use it. If they don't they'll go under. It's kind of like being in a multicultural society and seeing the minority cultures assimilate with the main culture. No one is directly forcing them to, but they have to due to indirect forces: economics, predjudice, etc. Of course, we're talking about roleplaying games here so it's not such a "heavy" issue but I do see this monopolization happening with d20. I'm sure a lot of genres/non-d20 systems could work just fine with d20, but the phenonomon of d20 and, indeed, the very fact that it's free, is indirectly making people decide to use d20 for their newly published game instead of designing a system with its own identity.

Yes and no. A lot of the discussion is purely taste based discussion, but some of it is not. That seems a bit of a dodge to me, if you don't mind my saying so.

I didn't mean it to be a dodge. Most of my opinions here are based on taste. I think you're saying that I should analyse the situation better and see if my taste is, indeed, founded on solid hard facts. I have to apologise, I've never really looked that indepth into my "feelings" about RPGs before, but I'll take note of what you say in the future and before I post something.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Funny you should mention that. The first thing I thought when I saw PrCs was "Wow! Someone's taken WFRP Professions and done them right!"

The main thing I remember about WHFRP was that is wasn't class-based, but profession-based. You could be a Bounty Hunter, for example, who got better at it or who changed to a different "job" as the chance presented itself.