Dagger Implement Weirdness

[NMcCoy]

If I have a Sorcerer using a Frost Dagger as an implement, I can turn all my spells into Cold spells, right? (This could make some Dragon Magic Sorcerers very happy, with the elemental-boost feats and resistance penetration.)

With a +1 Quick Dagger can I use Acid Orb as the followup from the daily, because it's a basic attack?

(Also: The character builder lists "Any Ranged" enhancements for daggers, presumably because they're thrown weapons. Is this correct behavior?)

 

[BobTheNob]

If I have a Sorcerer using a Frost Dagger as an implement, I can turn all my spells into Cold spells, right? (This could make some Dragon Magic Sorcerers very happy, with the elemental-boost feats and resistance penetration.)

With a +1 Quick Dagger can I use Acid Orb as the followup from the daily, because it's a basic attack?

(Also: The character builder lists "Any Ranged" enhancements for daggers, presumably because they're thrown weapons. Is this correct behavior?)

Absolutely...not! Im afraid the frost dagger is not an implement at all (its listed as a weapon, not an implement) and so does nothing for implement powers what-so-ever. That means spells. So no, it cannot turn spells from one damage form into another. I would even go so far as saying that even if an implement weapon were used (such as staff) you would need eplicitly described that it is allowed to change damage forms of spells. An excellent example of the is the "Staff of Acid and Flame" from the Adventurers Vault.

(On another note, as DM you should be on high alert against things that would change damage type so rediculously easily. Its this sort of stuff that can screw up your campaign as it eliminate the restrictions and difficulty factors associated with the classes and makes things far too easy. A DM has the dual responsbility of making a campaign fun at the same time as ensureing players arent helping themselves to convenient rule interpretation.)

As for the acid orb, I havent seen that spell. But the quick weapon description specifically sais that the follow up strike sais "with this weapon". Again, this is a weapon, not an implement. You dont "cast spells" through it what-so-ever.

When reading equipment descriptions be very very VERY careful not to confuse weapons with implements (excepts staffs and weapons explicately listed as implements like the holy avenger)

 

[Fede]

The dagger can be an implement for the sorcerer (and maybe other classes, i don't know). I'm not saying that a frost dagger could change all the sorcerer's spell damage into cold, because honestly i don't know how to rule that. Maybe this kind of thing was discussed for the wizard of the spiral tower paragon path? i believe that, one way or the other, the ruling should be the same.

 

[Revinor]

Absolutely...not! Im afraid the frost dagger is not an implement at all (its listed as a weapon, not an implement) and so does nothing for implement powers what-so-ever. That means spells.

Maybe it would be good to read sorcerer description before making strong statements.

Sorcerers wield daggers and staffs to channel their wild arcane power. When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword.
(...)
Any dagger can function as a sorcerer implement. However, you don't gain a dagger's proficiency bonus when using the dagger as an implement.

Back to OP questions. I would say yes for Frost weapon (same as for Wizard of the Spiral Tower). It will also mean that weapon focus feat will give you bonus to all spells... (stupid rule, but confirmed in wotc faq).

As far as Quick weapon is concerned, I'm not sure.

 

[Eldorian]

(stupid rule, but confirmed in wotc faq).

woah what faq?

Damn. Missed that update. I really hope this means that we'll see "implement focus" in phb2 or arcane power. It shoulda been in the PhB.

 

[BobTheNob]

Maybe it would be good to read sorcerer description before making strong statements.

Back to OP questions. I would say yes for Frost weapon (same as for Wizard of the Spiral Tower). It will also mean that weapon focus feat will give you bonus to all spells... (stupid rule, but confirmed in wotc faq).

As far as Quick weapon is concerned, I'm not sure.

Good point (Slap in face happily received). I have learned something and made an assessment before I knew. Yet, now knowing, I wouldnt change my stance on the issue one inch!

Be very wary. Ask yourself some questions
* When the designer penned the Frost dagger, were they anticipating that a class they did not yet know would exist could use a dagger as an implement?
* When the description of the frost dagger was penned, do you think the designers meant it for weapon attacks? Were they even thinking spell attacks?

Getting back to the example from the AV the "Staff of acid and flame" and compare. Thats a level 10 item minimum for a +2 (meaning top teir for for each +) compared to a frost dagger which is level 3 for a +1 (meaning much lower teir and accessed alot more easily. All the staff can do is convert acid to flame and vice versa, the dagger can convert ANY spell to cold AND you can stack extra cold damage on!!! Its chalk and cheese, the dagger %&*#$s over the staff and it really shouldnt.

Variations like allowing sorcerors to use daggers as implements are things to allow indiviualtisation and variation. If you rule that a frost dagger can be used in this way, it becomes, quite simply, more powerful.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself is this what the designers intended when they said sorcerors can use dagger as implements? I know how I would anser that question

 

[Ziana]

According to RAW in the PHB, most likely.

According to the FAQ and subsequent CSR answers, no.

17. When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.


From a CSR:

The answer to the PHB FAQ question number 17 specifically leaves out powers of a magic weapon, because they do not apply when it is being used as an implement. Just because powers are not specifically forbidden does not mean they are allowed. Treat the sentence like "You ONLY gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property."

So Powers are excluded from being added to the effects of Class Powers cast with these items. For now. Until there's an actual errata, it's rather unclear.

 

[Drakhar]

Good point (Slap in face happily received). I have learned something and made an assessment before I knew. Yet, now knowing, I wouldnt change my stance on the issue one inch!

Be very wary. Ask yourself some questions
* When the designer penned the Frost dagger, were they anticipating that a class they did not yet know would exist could use a dagger as an implement?
* When the description of the frost dagger was penned, do you think the designers meant it for weapon attacks? Were they even thinking spell attacks?

Getting back to the example from the AV the "Staff of acid and flame" and compare. Thats a level 10 item minimum for a +2 (meaning top teir for for each +) compared to a frost dagger which is level 3 for a +1 (meaning much lower teir and accessed alot more easily. All the staff can do is convert acid to flame and vice versa, the dagger can convert ANY spell to cold AND you can stack extra cold damage on!!! Its chalk and cheese, the dagger %&*# over the staff and it really shouldnt.

Variations like allowing sorcerors to use daggers as implements are things to allow indiviualtisation and variation. If you rule that a frost dagger can be used in this way, it becomes, quite simply, more powerful.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself is this what the designers intended when they said sorcerors can use dagger as implements? I know how I would anser that question

To answer your first question, yes they were anticipating it as the Wizard of the Spiral Tower was written at the same time as Frost/Fire/Lightning Weapons were.

Now in responce to the OP. Frost weapon's at-will allows you to change all damage dealt by the weapon to Frost Damage, now it's up to you/your DM to decide whether or not that means you have to hit the target with the weapon or simply channeling magic through it is enough.

As for the Quick Weapon, if it says basic attack, not basic melee attack then yes you would be able to use Acid Orb/Magic Missle/Eldritch Blast etc, as they are as you correctly pointed out basic attacks.

In regards to the CB I'm not sure as I myself am unsure whether or not a thrown weapon counts as a ranged weapon or simply a melee weapon whose property allows you to make a ranged attack with it.

 

[Rechan]

Damn. Missed that update. I really hope this means that we'll see "implement focus" in phb2 or arcane power. It shoulda been in the PhB.

From the D&DXP character sheets, we saw:[

Weapon Expertise (+1 to attack with chosen weapon group)
Implement Expertise (Dagger) and IMplement Expertise (Rod)
Radiant Power (-2 to attack for +2 to damage with implement)

So yeah, I anticipate we will.

 

[BobTheNob]

Now in responce to the OP. Frost weapon's at-will allows you to change all damage dealt by the weapon to Frost Damage, now it's up to you/your DM to decide whether or not that means you have to hit the target with the weapon or simply channeling magic through it is enough.

This is essentially the key point. Without official ruleing on this it really is up to the DM(not the players) to make an assesment on this, and indeed on all core rules, as to how he believes it will impact his game.

Without further clarification, my own position would be that I would require a dagger which is a variant that has wording which stipulate it can transform damage type for powers which use the implement key word. As it stands I will be ruling that change in damage type for the Frost weapon (and indeed all the "elemental" weapons) can be used when the damage of the attack in question has the (W) qualifier (e.g. 3(W) damage. Tick!)