Daggerheart "Description on Demand" a GM DON'T

[payn]

I cant say ive encountered somebody who would cut their GM for dropping DoD on them... Though, I know some folks dont like it. I was in a cyberpunk game once where the GM sprung it on an unsuspecting player.
GM: You enter the Megacorp front lobby...what do YOU see?
Player: ...oh me? Like me me? Or like my character me?
GM: Whichever you choose.
Player: Well.. umm... Im not sure...
GM: Just describe what you expect to see to set the scene...
Player: So... well.. How about... Potted plants???

That was the longest session of my life. I didnt want to cut the GM for doing it, but they really should have had a discussion about it. I think folks need some on boarding if they have never done it.

 

[zakael19]

I cant say ive encountered somebody who would cut their GM for dropping DoD on them... Though, I know some folks dont like it. I was in a cyberpunk game once where the GM sprung it on an unsuspecting player.
GM: You enter the Megacorp front lobby...what do YOU see?
Player: ...oh me? Like me me? Or like my character me?
GM: Whichever you choose.
Player: Well.. umm... Im not sure...
GM: Just describe what you expect to see to set the scene...
Player: So... well.. How about... Potted plants???

That was the longest session of my life. I didnt want to cut the GM for doing it, but they really should have had a discussion about it. I think folks need some on boarding if they have never done it.

Right see that’s a bad way of doing it though. The GM should give you a starter prompt: “hey Jones, as you look around the lobby here what about the advert holos makes you think somebody has hacked into the system” or “what makes you start to think those receptionists are a little off” or “how has the Corp you’re here to see put its big undeniable stamp on the decor…” etc.

 

[Cadence]

Right see that’s a bad way of doing it though. The GM should give you a starter prompt: “hey Jones, as you look around the lobby here what about the advert holos makes you think somebody has hacked into the system” or “what makes you start to think those receptionists are a little off” or “how has the Corp you’re here to see put its big undeniable stamp on the decor…” etc.

Yeah, I have no practice with that and it feels awkward just reading it there. (With practice who knows, I might like it. But it isn't in my current wheelhouse.)

 

[zakael19]

Yeah, I have no practice with that and it feels awkward just reading it there. (With practice who knows, I might like it. But it isn't in my current wheelhouse.)

Yeah fair. Across my 15 current players two struggle a little with off the cuff stuff, I tend to tee up a couple bits of like prompts for them and they usually “yes and” one or use it as a pivot.

I know there’s some people who just don’t want to do this at all period dot, but I haven’t played with any yet! Also, doing things this way has led to such less fatigue since as others have noted engaged and contributing players share the cognitive load and enthusiasm begets enthusiasm.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I love Daggerheart and its ethos of "Ask they players questions and incorporate the answers." I immediately gravitated toward it and have found is useful and fun.
But when discussing Daggerheart on a forum, one person was all "Oh, it has Description on Demand? That's a hard no, I'm out."

I hadn't heard the (slightly loaded) term "Description on Demand, but I looked it up and found Justin Alexander's blog post declaring this technique one of his "GM DON'Ts."

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Description-on-demand tends to be a fad that periodically cycles through the RPG meme-sphere. When it does so, the general perception seems to be that every player thinks this is the greatest thing since chocolate-dipped donuts.

So let’s start there: This is not true. Many players do love it. But many players DO NOT. In fact, a lot of players hate it. There are a significant number of players for whom this is antithetical to the entire reason they want to play an RPG and it will literally ruin the game for them.

I’m one of those players. I’ve quit games because of it and have zero regrets for having done so.
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He talks about this being immersion breaking because it requires a shift in the POV. I disagree, it doesn't necessarily. Asking a player "what do you see that's different about the bark on these trees?" is just that player imagining seeing something, and describing it.

As I said, I was discussing the game online, and I described a scene where an NPC asks a PC where they got their sword. This felt like a normal interaction that wouldn't be out of place in any D&D game I've played. But the person, another GM, said "SEE??! That's Description on Demand. If I did that at my table there'd be 5 minutes of awkward silence and stammering. You're putting them on the spot. You can't expect players to be able to do that!" I'm like "your player can't come up with something like 'from my father' or 'I found it'?"

Now I recognize that different tables have different styles. But reading the Alexandrian blog and with the interaction with this GM, it sounds like to some people this is WRONG WRONG WRONG and if you ask about someone's sword you better be ready for some quitting-the-game level blowback.

What have your experiences been? Do you think it's immersion-breaking?

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I do not care for that technique as a player OR GM. As a player I don't want to have control over anything beyond my PC, and as a GM I don't want my players to have control over anything outside of their PC. It is immersion-breaking for me.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The answer, as almost always, is to talk to everyone you play with before play begins and Justin Alexander flips over the table mid-game and storms out. (Also, maybe don't invite Justin over any more.)

 

[John Lloyd1]

A big chunk of my table(s) are somewhere on the AuDHD range - including some of the most engaged and off-the-cuff creative players. I don't think improvisation maps particularly onto any of that - some people are simply better at spontaneity than others.

I wasn't thinking of Neurodiverity as a single category, but a variety of different ways of thinking. I also don't dig into my players diagnosis (I DM in a game store). But, for one of my regular players, this was certainly an area they would freeze up on.

 

[BruceWright]

I do not care for that technique as a player OR GM. As a player I don't want to have control over anything beyond my PC, and as a GM I don't want my players to have control over anything outside of their PC. It is immersion-breaking for me.

What about my example of an NPC saying to a player character "wow, that's a nice sword you have there. Where did you get it? (assuming it's not been established in a previous adventure). That feels well within the PC's world to me, and yet I heard a hard no from that GM about it.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yeah, it was the harshness of listing it as a "Don't" rather than a "style I don't care for" was what alerted me that I might need to be more aware of the strong dislike some have for it.

I think it’s definitely a different enough play style that you’d want to announce it at the start of a campaign during a session zero, or better yet, try it out as part of a one shot to see how everyone enjoys it. But I don’t think it’s inherently bad or wrong.

 

[zakael19]

What about my example of an NPC saying to a player character "wow, that's a nice sword you have there. Where did you get it? (assuming it's not been established in a previous adventure). That feels well within the PC's world to me, and yet I heard a hard no from that GM about it.

Micah is one of the people I mentioned who simply don't want to engage in this period dot.