Daily powers replaced with class features for Fighter & Ranger

[Kingreaper]

It won't have to, remember that melee and ranged basic attacks like all at-will powers will scale to 2[W] by epic tier. Other at-wills already don't usually scale effects, just damage by level 21 and so these don't need scaling mods at all.

+2 damage isn't really that useful at high levels. +2/+4(epic) or +2/+3/+4 would be less of a target for retraining.

Most at-wills that are Basic+damage have the damage tied to an ability modifier. Usually, that'll be the PCs secondary, making it scaling.

If there are other reasonable stances, I can't see Battle Wrath as-is being worthwhile at 21st level.

 

[Aegeri]

Unless they are all that bad , but I do inherently see your point.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

+2 damage isn't really that useful at high levels. +2/+4(epic) or +2/+3/+4 would be less of a target for retraining.

Most at-wills that are Basic+damage have the damage tied to an ability modifier. Usually, that'll be the PCs secondary, making it scaling.

If there are other reasonable stances, I can't see Battle Wrath as-is being worthwhile at 21st level.

Chances are things like Weapon Mastery (level 5) and Weapon Specialization (level 7) will be doing SOMETHING to boost damage, at least with certain weapons. I really doubt the class will be out of whack damage-wise on its own. The math will probably work pretty well. The issue is STILL problems with the way it interacts with existing feats (and maybe some items too). Melee Training is already an obvious oddity, if not an outright problem (Make your fighter use ANY stat for ALL of its attacks, how about using CON, hmmmm....).

 

[FireLance]

The issue is STILL problems with the way it interacts with existing feats (and maybe some items too). Melee Training is already an obvious oddity, if not an outright problem (Make your fighter use ANY stat for ALL of its attacks, how about using CON, hmmmm....).

Personally, I consider this a feature, not a bug. So what if a knight pumps some other ability score instead of Strength (and at the cost of a feat, to boot)? I don't see how that would unbalance the game*.

In any case, I think there is enough incentive for a fighter to keep his Strength reasonably high - most of the Paragon-level weapon-specific feats and the Epic-level weapon mastery feats have a Strength prerequisite, for example.

* Granted, my threshold for "something that unbalances the game" may be higher than yours.

 

[Garthanos]

Personally, I consider this a feature, not a bug. So what if a knight pumps some other ability score instead of Strength (and at the cost of a feat, to boot)? I don't see how that would unbalance the game*.

It would come in as a feature to me... but using a different base stat flavors ok as a exotic fighting style. (just not as well as distinct moves). Mix in multiclass... to get other fancy tricks derived off of that attribute?

It can be "not-a-moron" meat shield that way.

Except that in keeping with the new direction this seems to represent they will probably nerf melee training so only physical attributes work ...so that it is more in keeping with grognardian prejudices... that nerd versus jock thing just needs enshrined, feh.

"First we remove all martial classes that use their minds from the introduction to the game
so newbies dont get ummmm what is that word yeh, confused."

 

[avin]

You know what? It looks like the beginning of the end of 4.0

I'm particularly glad there's an option to remove the gamist idea of a martial attack that can be done just once in a day.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When the class design of all martial classes will be modifying base attacks, then the first thing to notice is that the Ranger is suddenly not really v-shaped anymore and powers don´t need to be awkwardly formulated:

melee: make a basic attack, if you hit, you may add 1[w] offhand to the damage (if the attack was a melee basic attack)

ranged: make a basic attack, if you hit, you may add 1[w] ranged weapon to the damage (if the attack was a ranged basic attack)
melee ranged

hybrid (melee and ranged): same as above, with melee training dexterity or using a heavy thrown weapon weapon.

 

[MrMyth]

Which doesn't happen much after a certain level. Except the essentials fighter has no encounter or daily powers that I can see, so might indeed end up spamming a basic attack all fight.

This is supposed to be an improvement how? The basic feature of the challenging aura is a fantastic one though, I will grant anyone that.

The Knight will be making basic attacks all fight, yes.

However, those basic attacks will have different bonuses based on what stance he's in - whether he cleaves enemies or just does extra damage to one guy.

In addition, when another player would use an encounter powers, he will instead use power strike to do extra damage - or, at later levels, probably bonus effects like tripping his enemy or knocking him back. The nice trick here is that he is doing this while still cleaving enemies or such.

So thus far, I am relatively confident we will see the same balance of resources as far as on an At-Will and Encounter basis.

We have not yet seen what he gets in place of a Daily power. Note we haven't seen the level 1 features "Battle Guardian, Weapon Talent, or Shield Finesse" which is probably where that 'daily' resource will show up.

I can respect WotC not wanting to reveal everything about how the class works. I think it a bad call to have not shown just a bit more, if only to put these sort of questions to rest.

In any case, it seems an interesting approach. I wish it wasn't quite so far afield from standard class design and compatibility. On the other hand, it is almost exactly how I've long felt 4E should have been designed from the start, so I am eager to see how it performs in actual play.

 

[KidSnide]

I can respect WotC not wanting to reveal everything about how the class works. I think it a bad call to have not shown just a bit more, if only to put these sort of questions to rest.

We should keep in mind that these previews are marketing. Of course, they want to give us enough information to get us excited about their good ideas and to counter some of the unproductive inaccurate speculation. However, WotC also wants to leave enough interesting questions open that we're excited about learning what's only in the books themselves.

The biggest D&D purchasers mostly have DDI. If the previews answer all our burning questions about how the classes work, it will increase the number of people who just shrug their shoulders and wait for the crunch to show up on DDI.

Of course, I would also have liked to see all the level 1 abilities, but I'm not sure it was a mistake on their part to have held some back.

-KS

 

[mkill]

When the class design of all martial classes will be modifying base attacks, then the first thing to notice is that the Ranger is suddenly not really v-shaped anymore

1. Whoa, hold it. Nothing has been said about the Ranger yet. Please don't create yet another raging fire of unfounded speculation here. Please mark your post with a big IF.

2. MBAs are Str - RBAs are Dex (except heavy thrown). That's V-shape to me... To make it A-shape, he'd need a feature to either make Dex-based MBAs or use Str with all ranged weapons.