D&D 5E Damage in this Packet is Totally Out of Control

mlund

First Post
It isn't damage dice that matters in a contest between a guy wielding a katana and a guy brandishing a Swingline stapler. The issue is reach. D&D doesn't model distinctions in reach at that granularity, so it's a moot point. Assuming a trained killer is inside your sword's reach with a random bludgeoning weapon you're in almost as much trouble as if he had a sword. When he hits you in the head you're probably out of the fight.

And that's completely glossing over how ineffectual most weapons with fast speed and longer reach are against people in any sort of metal armor. Swords are essentially useless as slashing devices against mail armor. They are bludgeons to put someone to ground with and then poorly-designed spears to impale them once they are helpless. Swords are for slashing up poorly armored peasants. If you want to kill someone in adventurer-caliber armor you use a bludgeon (war hammer, mace, flail) or some sort of piercing weapon backed up by massive concussive force (morning star).

What people always overlook when looking at historical efficacy of medieval weapons is that good metal armor was prohibitively expensive, the overwhelming bulk of all armies that fought simply didn't have it. Moreover, most of the nobles (who could afford such armor), were not assigned or disposed to fight one another in melee. They were deployed to rout vulnerable peasant infantry units, and were most often lost in battle by simply being swarmed under in a horde when dismounted. They'd be pinned to the ground and someone would stick a dagger or spear into a vulnerable part of their armor while they were helpless, or they'd have their helmet ripped off and their skull caved in with a bludgeon. This was true for samurai, knights, and just about any of their peers.

TL;DR: D&D weapons and armor mechanics aren't the least bit realistic because realistic isn't fun. D&D uses some easy-to-play abstractions that keep the game light and fun because trying to make all the martial activities obey physics while everyone else is playing wizards and fey is a fool's errand.

Does the great axe vs. dagger difference matter? Yes. Definitely. For anyone who isn't an adventurer it is a huge disparity: 1d4 vs. 1d12. The axe has a 300% advantage is maximum damage. Adventurers, however, are romanticized heroic characters who delve into progressively more legendary territory as they gain levels. At that point the type of weapon they carry is less a factor in their damage than their nigh-mythical prowess.

Heracles killed the Nemean Lion with his bare hands. He was Heracles. It doesn't matter that random-human-#153 would've had his neck ripped out by random-lion-#56 unless he used a weapon.

- Marty Lund
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

SageMinerve

Explorer
Can't XP you @mlund but I agree completely with you.

Realism and historical accuracy simply can't be used as a metric with D&D when the time comes to decide combat mechanics.

IMO, only fun, game design considerations and respect for fantasy tropes are valid criteria.
 
Last edited:

mlund

First Post
IMO, only fun, game design considerations and respect for fantasy tropes are valid criteria.

That really is the crux of it. D&D is a pile of tropes and related tactics, not a reality simulator. Mechanical parity is really there to keep one character's trope from trampling on that of another character. "Uranium Katanas," as cross-the-board trope for the game world makes ax-crazy dwarf fighters very sad.

- Marty Lund
 

the Jester

Legend
Heracles killed the Nemean Lion with his bare hands. He was Heracles. It doesn't matter that random-human-#153 would've had his neck ripped out by random-lion-#56 unless he used a weapon.

Yep. And Beowulf wrestled Grendel naked and ripped his arm out of its socket.

There is a long tradition of heroes being inhumanly dangerous even without a weapon.
 

YRUSirius

First Post
So why is it so important then to differentiate the weapons at lower levels?

Do we really need to emphasize this difference between low level characters and high level characters? Is this so important for legendary characters? (That they can kill a monster with a pencil?)

-YRUSirius
 

Salamandyr

Adventurer
So why is it so important then to differentiate the weapons at lower levels?

Do we really need to emphasize this difference between low level characters and high level characters? Is this so important for legendary characters? (That they can kill a monster with a pencil?)

-YRUSirius

If you're going where I think you're going, I agree. The more powerful a character is, the less the quality of his weapons should matter. Beowulf could wrestle Grendel into submission. Sure, using a sword would have been easier, but in a pinch, he could do it naked, with his bare hands. Conan bursts out of a dungeon, he has nothing but a dagger the lazy jailer had been cutting his mutton with, those two guards in his way don't stand a chance, chain mail and broadsword or no. After he's dealt with the two guards, he'll pick up the sword, because hey, a sword! but he's a scary deal regardless. (Inherent in that is my problem with the monk class, but that's for another thread.)

While I have some problems with the actual mechanics, notably there being two of them, I think 5e models the above examples perfectly. As the fighter gains in experience, his dangerousness has less and less to do with his weapons, and more and more to do with his own ability to throw down.
 
Last edited:

YRUSirius

First Post
But I don't think that weapon damage should be so negligible at high levels as it is right now. The type of weapon really doesn't matter anymore if you're just going for damage. Going from a 1d8 longsword to a 1d4 dagger doesn't matter anymore. His choice of weapon is entering the realm of "fluff". Why aren't all high level adventurers using daggers then to spend their gold coins on better armor instead? Why use a two-handed sword at high levels afterall? There is no ingame logic for that.

So why is this weapon choice so important at low levels but not at high levels? Do we really want this?

In my opinion the weapon choice should stay relevant for all type of fighters at all levels (and not just weapon specialists who get special maneuvers for their spezialised weapon).

-YRUSirius
 


A'koss

Explorer
But I don't think that weapon damage should be so negligible at high levels as it is right now. The type of weapon really doesn't matter anymore if you're just going for damage. Going from a 1d8 longsword to a 1d4 dagger doesn't matter anymore. His choice of weapon is entering the realm of "fluff". Why aren't all high level adventurers using daggers then to spend their gold coins on better armor instead? Why use a two-handed sword at high levels afterall? There is no ingame logic for that.

So why is this weapon choice so important at low levels but not at high levels? Do we really want this?

In my opinion the weapon choice should stay relevant for all type of fighters at all levels (and not just weapon specialists who get special maneuvers for their spezialised weapon).

-YRUSirius
Because it allows for a wider range of viable character styles. For example, the fighter who wants to play up the Riddick-style high-level dagger-based fighter is now a viable option... This is a good thing! And now if you find magical weapons with an enchantment you like, you don't have to balk if it's not a greatsword. It's still a useful weapon. You can even built toolkits of weapons at higher levels - your frostbrand shortword will sit happily beside your firetongue greataxe. But even at the highest levels, the greatsword still inflicts a little more damage than a dagger, it's not completely subsumed by skill.
 
Last edited:

YRUSirius

First Post
The Riddick-style fighter, if you want it, could be achieved by a dagger speciality too.

I think we're putting the cart before the horse. The bigger concepts shouldn't be put to the background only to put some niche concepts to the foreground at high levels.

In my opinion weapon choice should matter more at the higher levels. It just does so little at high levels in comparison to everything else.

-YRUSirius
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top