Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[ashockney]

One of the biggest surprises I've experienced with 3.5 is the impact of the change to damage reduction. In my initial experiences, (up through 9th level) it is a really significant change.

First, it should be noted that the impact of haste has already given a significant advantage back to the bad guys: slowing down the potent offensive firepower of the party (who typically outnumber the BBEG's).

So, now an opponent with DR 10/magic and good is no pushover, surviving 3 to 4 rounds against a party of four. I was surprised to see the Rakshassa's DR 15/piercing and good. Woof! That is not at all easy to overcome. Even if one person has what's called for, the reduction of the whole party's ability is a significant. In combination with the 27 SR (vs. a 10th level party), things get real deadly. He's not unbeatable, but he's very tough.

So, here's the latest. One of the players in my campaign is considering completely retooling his dual-wielding character (either fighter/rogue or possibly fighter/whirling dervish) into a two-handed greatsword wielding fighter, BECAUSE OF DR. He knows that with all the undead, fiends, constructs, and magical beasts that the party will fight (and has fought) from 7th on up, he wants to be able to work around DR, and not feel like his "off-hand" shots are completely ineffective.

Has anyone else experienced this? What have you done?

Is this justified? Did 3.5Ed overcorrect?

What is my party possibly missing to help overcome DR for things like "and good" or "and cold iron" or "and adamantine"?

 

[thorian]

The fighters should have differrent weapons made of adamantine, cold iron, and silver so they can overcome the material portion of DR. The cleric should have a couple align weapon spells racked or wands/scrolls to overcome the alignment portion of DR. The only DR that is problematic after that is X/- and X/epic.

 

[ashockney]

The fighters should have differrent weapons made of adamantine, cold iron, and silver so they can overcome the material portion of DR. The cleric should have a couple align weapon spells racked or wands/scrolls to overcome the alignment portion of DR. The only DR that is problematic after that is X/- and X/epic.

Does this become the new standard for 3.5 Ed, like the 2nd Edition Haste/Bull's Strength?

I don't think the players have gotten into the "carrying around extra weapons yet. This is quite a big hassle, particularly by this level, where the magic weapons start to stack up, and switching out to a non-magical silver or a +1 silver is not quite the same. Plus it's a little lame to picture a barbarian walking around with three great axes. Or a whirling dervish walking around with six scimitars. Where would he put them?

 

[gfunk]

Speaking from direct experience in my campaign, our TWF halfling rogue has gotten the shaft with the new DR rules. Unlike Fighters wielding large two-handed weapons, he does not have multiple sets of arms (silver, admantine, cold iron).

Therefore, he has few options if he cannot flank. He needs that extra sneak attack damage or he is screwed.

Rangers and alt-fighters without sneak attack are indeed in a difficult situation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Plus it's a little lame to picture a barbarian walking around with three great axes. Or a whirling dervish walking around with six scimitars. Where would he put them?

Heward's Handy Golfbag.

-Hyp.

 

[Capellan]

Heward's Handy Golfbag.

Best 'value for money' item in the DMG, even before the new DR.

Unlike Fighters wielding large two-handed weapons, he does not have multiple sets of arms (silver, admantine, cold iron).

Why not? It's not like they're expensive (well, adamantine is, but it's still affordable for characters who need to worry about monsters with significant DR). They don't even need to be magical: a high-level rogue who can't use wands of align weapon and magic weapon probably needs to rethink their skill point situation ... but even if they can't, you can use magic oils to make up for that.

 

[RisnDevil]

I don't know if you play in FR or use the supplements, but they have a new magical porperty in "Underdark" entitled Metalline. It is a +1 adjustmant I believe, and makes the weapon change to ANY type of metal, I believe AT WILL. That reduces the extra weapons need. What is also fun, is they have another property called Sizing but that is for another time/question....

 

[Plane Sailing]

Is this justified? Did 3.5Ed overcorrect?

It is my belief that this is what happened. Look at all the significant improvements to 2H weapon use (better power attack, lower DR makes it practical to power through it) compared to the downshift to TWF (no PA on off hand, affected more by DR) and finesse weapons like rapiers (no stacking of keen and improved crit)

I think Andy Collins and his mates love 2H weapons and wanted to shift things around to get more people using them. Shame really

 

[ashockney]

It is my belief that this is what happened. Look at all the significant improvements to 2H weapon use (better power attack, lower DR makes it practical to power through it) compared to the downshift to TWF (no PA on off hand, affected more by DR) and finesse weapons like rapiers (no stacking of keen and improved crit)

I think Andy Collins and his mates love 2H weapons and wanted to shift things around to get more people using them. Shame really

This is the feedback I was looking for, because I've been really surprised at the difference. Of course it doesn't help that last weekend another guy whipped out a Frenzied Berserker wielding a wicked Greataxe. It really put the two weapon wielder to shame. The other relevant point my player who uses two weapons always wants to point out is look at the feat investment he's made compared to the two-handed wielder.

Not sure I follow what you mean about finesse weapons not stacking keen/improved crit? Where could you reference that?

I COMPLETELY missed the effect of power attack not working iwith a light weapon. That is a HUGE hindrance to two weapon fighting! Given that change, why would anyone EVER make the feat investment required to use two-weapon fighting unless you had sneak attack?

 

[Celtavian]

re

I have to throw my hat in with the "New DR system screws TWF" camp. I play a TWF and I am sorely outdone by the THF. When DR is present that I can't pentrate, I can't even make a dent the majority of the time. Throw in a monster with Fast Healing or Regeneration on top of DR and I am really screwed.

Collins really didn't think about the repercussions of the DR change for TWF's. I guess he must have been working under the assumption that every TWF would have energy damage weapons or carry a wide assortment of different metal weapons.

It's even easier to use Align Weapon on a THF rather than two Align Weapons on a TWF.

I'm definitely not digging how much TWF lags behind THF. There not even comparable in actual gameplay.