Just read more about the grappling. Either twf or thf are toast against a grappler with a bonus that far exceeds their own. Every round the grappler can attempt to pin, useing one attack and causeing the other party to be able to do nothing. That is, no attacks. Hence, once either one is grappled they are both out of it. The thf has the advantage because his strength is almost invariably higher, plus has extra feats he may throw into grappling. The twf is toast, in most cases so is the thf. No advantage there.
Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting
- Thread starter ashockney
- Start date
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Scion said:
You are mostly right but not quite. You can make an attack with a light weapon while grappled at a -4 penalty -- no opposed check. The TWF has the benefit of probably having a light weapon in hand but they do not get to make the full TWF iterative attack. The THF has to drop his favorite weapon then use spikes or draw a dagger (requires opposed check) to attack.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Scion said:
It does not particularly bother me that the THF is ahead on damage. If you want to maximize damage it seems appropriate to go with two-handed weapons.
My personal feeling is the fix is not necessarily boost the potency of TWF but further tone down the feat cost. It has always seemed to me that Improved TWF and Greater TWF were nickel and diming the character. Why not just give the iterative offhand attacks with TWF in the first place? TWF seems a little underwhelming in the level range of 6-12 anyway.
I am still uncomfortable with the hyperoptimization of using paired light weapons. Seems to me that long sword + short sword should not be at such a marked disadvantage in comparison.
Ridley's Cohort said:
Of course, I have always advocated changing twf 3 feats into just a single twf feat that scales as you go up in levels, it is unfortunate that it is not what is done now. That is a change I've made in my games, it goes nicely, but at that point there have to be some minor alterations to the ranger class.
It does bother me a bit that thf are above on damage, ahead in most options, and costs less feats. With it only costing one most of these problems just go away.
As for grappling though
SRD:
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons
and
Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
and
If You’re Pinned by an Opponent
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.
With all of that I'd have to say that either character build is in serious trouble in that fight once grappled
Neither side has any huge advantage. +30 or higher grapple checks are hard to overcome.
Darklone said:
I was just trying to cover all of the bases at once
Just in case something was meant that wasnt said, or said unclearly. Chances of the twf getting to do any attacks at all is less than the thf (because of str differences), but if the twf gets to use his attacks his damage will be slightly higher (probably, depending on str difference and feat choices it is impossible to say with certainty). In any event, even if the twf was much better during a grapple than the thf, which is far from proven, the thf is still better in most every other combat special manuever. Disarm? AOO's? Charge? Sunder?The_Nighthawk
First Post
If I remember
There was an old feat of some name that was in one of the mongoose publishing.
The quintessential fighter I think the book was.
Anyway, in it, there was a feat or a class that allowed a character to strike with both weapons (assuming he wield two weapon, or a double one) and substract the DR from the total of the two hits.
Personally, I think that TWF should be the greatest fighting style assuming you have the right attribute. After all, you are spending so much feats.
Then, you gain less than anyone.
I keep seing this: -Use energy weapon, like fire, or cold weapons. They deal an additional +1d6 of damage each time they touch, and sometime, +1d0 when dealing a critical hits. Now, those wielding THW are toasted.
True, but have you notice that energy weapon can be used as a THW. Let's see a greataxe for example.
+1d6 for energy on a normal hit, and +2d10 dealing a critical hits.
Let's say that my fighter with 46 feats using two small weapon deliver 6 hits for 1d6+5 each + 1d6 elemental damage each: Total: 12d6+30
Assuming all d6 rolls where 3s= 66.
My greataxe wielder hit only 3 times because of his 3 attacks.
1d12+12 each + 1d6 elemental damage each: Total: 3d12+36+3d6.
Assuming all d6 rolls where 3s, and d12 where 6s = 63.
Here, the 2 weapons wielder have a little advantage assuming his off-hand deals as much str damage as his main hands, and assuming the great axe user do not use power attack.
Now, lets see a critical hit for the great axe: 3d12+36+1d6+2d10.
Total: 67
Now lets see 2 critical hits for the two weapons user: 2d6+10+1d6+1d10
Total: 24
Since he hits two times = 24 x2 = 48.
Here... we see that the Great axe wielder with energy weapon is still by far the stronger opponent anytime.
What he needs ? nothing... Give him weapon focus and power attack, and he is a monster.
What the Two weapon fighter needs ? 3 feats, high dex, 2 magic weapons, and a special power that make his second attack as strong as his first.
To what purpose ? None at all. Even with that, he is far behind the greataxe wielder.
Twf is not that hard. It is hard, but not that hard. And fighters should benefit the most from that style. In this game, rogues and precision based damage are the only way that style can become viable.
Too bad.
There was an old feat of some name that was in one of the mongoose publishing.
The quintessential fighter I think the book was.
Anyway, in it, there was a feat or a class that allowed a character to strike with both weapons (assuming he wield two weapon, or a double one) and substract the DR from the total of the two hits.
Personally, I think that TWF should be the greatest fighting style assuming you have the right attribute. After all, you are spending so much feats.
Then, you gain less than anyone.
I keep seing this: -Use energy weapon, like fire, or cold weapons. They deal an additional +1d6 of damage each time they touch, and sometime, +1d0 when dealing a critical hits. Now, those wielding THW are toasted.
True, but have you notice that energy weapon can be used as a THW. Let's see a greataxe for example.
+1d6 for energy on a normal hit, and +2d10 dealing a critical hits.
Let's say that my fighter with 46 feats using two small weapon deliver 6 hits for 1d6+5 each + 1d6 elemental damage each: Total: 12d6+30
Assuming all d6 rolls where 3s= 66.
My greataxe wielder hit only 3 times because of his 3 attacks.
1d12+12 each + 1d6 elemental damage each: Total: 3d12+36+3d6.
Assuming all d6 rolls where 3s, and d12 where 6s = 63.
Here, the 2 weapons wielder have a little advantage assuming his off-hand deals as much str damage as his main hands, and assuming the great axe user do not use power attack.
Now, lets see a critical hit for the great axe: 3d12+36+1d6+2d10.
Total: 67
Now lets see 2 critical hits for the two weapons user: 2d6+10+1d6+1d10
Total: 24
Since he hits two times = 24 x2 = 48.
Here... we see that the Great axe wielder with energy weapon is still by far the stronger opponent anytime.
What he needs ? nothing... Give him weapon focus and power attack, and he is a monster.
What the Two weapon fighter needs ? 3 feats, high dex, 2 magic weapons, and a special power that make his second attack as strong as his first.
To what purpose ? None at all. Even with that, he is far behind the greataxe wielder.
Twf is not that hard. It is hard, but not that hard. And fighters should benefit the most from that style. In this game, rogues and precision based damage are the only way that style can become viable.
Too bad.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
The_Nighthawk said:
Why can't the TWF person be using handaxes, which also deal +2d10 on a Flaming Burst x3 Critical?
-Hyp.
The_Nighthawk
First Post
see
See... I did not even tough about that one.
Sure it balance things more. Well, critical hits at least.
However, using greataxe is far superior in average damage. Using 2 short swords or stuff like that allow you to strike more critical hits than the great axe wielder.
However, using picks or handaxe put the critical range of the two weapon user at the same place that the great axe user.
In other words, the overall ability to deal massive damage of the two weapon user will be cancelled. Well, not cancelled, but decreased further.
Dealing 2 critical hits, he will do a little more damage. Dealing average day damage, with 3 tons of feats, he will deal less than the great axe user.
The problem remains.
See... I did not even tough about that one.
Sure it balance things more. Well, critical hits at least.
However, using greataxe is far superior in average damage. Using 2 short swords or stuff like that allow you to strike more critical hits than the great axe wielder.
However, using picks or handaxe put the critical range of the two weapon user at the same place that the great axe user.
In other words, the overall ability to deal massive damage of the two weapon user will be cancelled. Well, not cancelled, but decreased further.
Dealing 2 critical hits, he will do a little more damage. Dealing average day damage, with 3 tons of feats, he will deal less than the great axe user.
The problem remains.
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