Dancey resigns as GAMA Treasurer

Nisarg said:
Then please, please, Rasyr, BillD, anyone on the "other side" of this debate, please give us your definition of "quality"!

Note that it apparently cannot include "financial success" as one of its defining terms.
And ideally, for me to take you seriously, it should amount to something more than "the games I like are obviously quality just because i feel they're good".

Why is it that, in almost anything, the crowd that say "quality can never have anything to do with financial success or the public's likes" are typically the ones who are selling something no one is buying?

Nisarg

You're never going to be satisfied with anything we propose, or should I say you're never going to take anything we say seriously, becaues there is no objective definition of quality that everyone will agree on. That's the nature of subjective review. So I'm tempted to ask why I should bother.

But I would say that any nominating committee, picking products for quality-oriented awards, should pick products that reach high levels of clarity of content, entertainment value, editing detail (which may cover need for errata and rules-compliance), interestingness of new ideas, how well it accomplishes any set goals (like simulating the world of Robert E. Howard or representing the politics of Imperial Rome or whatever) and whether the layout and art presented is appropriate for the feel of the product. If the nominating committee, using whatever decision making methods they can come up with to weed out the problems they seem to have now, can agree that product A sets a generally higher standard than product B on those points, they should be more inclined to include A in the list of nominees than B.
 

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billd91 said:
But I would say that any nominating committee, picking products for quality-oriented awards, should pick products that reach high levels of clarity of content, entertainment value, editing detail (which may cover need for errata and rules-compliance), interestingness of new ideas, how well it accomplishes any set goals (like simulating the world of Robert E. Howard or representing the politics of Imperial Rome or whatever) and whether the layout and art presented is appropriate for the feel of the product. If the nominating committee, using whatever decision making methods they can come up with to weed out the problems they seem to have now, can agree that product A sets a generally higher standard than product B on those points, they should be more inclined to include A in the list of nominees than B.

First of all I apologize if I made you think I'd dismiss whatever you said out of hand. That's not my intent. I do get riled up at the attitude that to be "legit" one must be "anti-establishment", and it doesn't help that this attitude is often the underlying motive behind D20-haters, the idea that no D20 product can be quality, just because its successful.
Consider it a hangover from the relentless D20-attacks on Rpg.net.

Regarding your criteria for "quality", I think most of them are pretty legitimate. The layout/art/content/editing material all comes down to technical criteria, which is definitely an important and relatively empirical way of judging quality. So you and I would certainly agree on these points being important.


Regarding "entertainment value". I would argue that the best way to judge this criteria would be the popular regard for the product. Meaning that this would be a good place for commercial success to play a role.

My main issue is that Origins, if its meant to be THE award for the industry, should in SOME way represent what people actually play and enjoy. It doesn't mean that I think that games that don't sell as much as a WoTC product should not be considered, it just means that I don't think WoTC products should be excluded just because they're the best selling. Origins shouldn't be an indie award. Or if it is, it shouldn't try to claim that its THE industry award. I fear that keeping commerical success out of the equation amounts to an anti-populist elitism that will also hand Origins into the hands of the ideologists that hate D20 for its success.

This is hardly an unfounded concern. A lot of the people that most strongly opposed Ryan Dancey's vision are also people that think D20 is the antichrist of gaming, and would like to see an industry where a small group of pseudo-intellectuals dictate from on high which games are considered "art".

My ideal would be an award system like the ENnies, where there is a combination of subjective judgement from a group of people in the know, and a popular choice from gamers themselves. This makes the ENnies a far more relevant award when it comes down to your regular gamer picking a game at his FLGS.

Part of what this thread has become is an analysis of not just what's wrong with Origins, but also what's wrong with the gaming industry as a whole.. part of the biggest problem with the industry today is that there's a great deal of ideological infighting going on among fandom (not just D20 vs. anti-D20, but that's a big one). Its also that gaming is becoming more and more insular, where fans don't actively recruit new fans, where game companies make games to impress other game designers rather than to generate new market, and where virtually nothing is done to get younger teens into roleplaying at the age where they could either get "hooked" on RPGs or get "hooked" on something else (ccgs, skateboarding, designer drugs, etc). I sincerely think part of the reason that no one is making these kind of "gateway games" is because too many would rather be making artsy high-definition self-referntial games meant to appeal to the older crowd with more money and to the self-anointed group of "experts" who decide what's "quality".

Nisarg
 
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Just to throw a thought in here WRT to the issue of sales.

Allow me to posit just for a moment that the "most excellent" or "best quality" (or whatever buzzword you like to use) gaming material can be defined simply... "that which has the greatest impact on the hobby of role-playing in general."

Think about that one for a minute before responding... it stands to reason, at least in my mind, that role-playing games do not exist in a vacuum. You cannot say that a particular system is empirically better or worse than another system. You might say that it is better for recreating verisimilitude, or that it is better to learn because the rules are clear, or it is better at defining fantasy/future/your choice of whatever. But people use role-playing systems for a variety of different things... and no system is optimized for all things, because one of the trade-offs you constantly have to make is "simplicity versus realism." You can't have something be exceptionally realistic AND exceptionally simple at the same time.

Furthermore, you can't really judge the impact of a role-playing game in a vacuum. You have to see how it works with your gaming group, with your friends. On a larger level, you have to see how it works with ALL gaming groups. The "best" games, at some level, are the ones that impact a large cross-section of gaming groups, because these are the ones that do the most to aid the role-playing experience across the entire set of role-players.

Sometimes, that influence is felt directly. If a million people pick up a system and start playing it, that system clearly has an impact on the RPG world at large. This is "Sales." High sales are not a sure indicator that a game is the "Best" game out there, but in general, sales are a good indicator that a game is not the "Worst" out there. To return to the example of "Titanic," was it the best movie of all time? No. Was it a horrible movie? Probably not. The same can be said of all the movies on the top-50 grossing movies (preferably adjusted for inflation) - only one can be the "best," but surely almost all were at least "good" movies, no?

Sometimes, however, the influence of a game is felt indirectly. It has a small release or a cult following... however, pieces and ideas from it are seen and picked up on by others, and eventually it impacts things "down the road" a few years. The original might have suffered from poor writing, poor editing, poor production values, etc., but eventually someone comes along, sees the potential, and re-uses/re-works it and we see the impact "ripple" through the RPG industry at a later time. D&D was not the first system to come up with "Skill Points" or "Open-Ended attribute scores," but it has since incorporated them... the place where they were first developed and put into the collective RPG consciousness, then, was a quality game (sadly, I don't know where these first germinated).

Indirect game influence is rarely seen directly, because it takes so doggone long. Industry professionals, however, are in a better position to see the potential and judge where the "indirect influences" are likely to come from... because they are the ones who will likely take those influences, meld them into their own products, and eventually mix them into the mainstream of RPG culture.

Thus, both sales and "industry nominations" are important factors, IMO. Sales is a good way of at least saying, "these products are good."

The Sigil's Theory of Quality*:

High sales volumes for an RPG product are a good indicator of high quality.

*Quality being defined as the impact the ideas in an RPG have on the hobby as a whole

Note that the reverse is NOT necessarily true... it does not follow from the above that low sales volumes for an RPG product are a good indicator of low quality.

Obviously, it's pretty easy to use "sales figures" to at least get a handle on what SOME of the good product is... but it doesn't mean that will find ALL the good products. Sales figures, however, serve as a useful "starting point." You can at least look at some of the top-selling products and figure that those products are impacting the hobby as a whole. It's the work finding the "high-quality, low-selling" products that a nominations board needs to be for.

I would suggest that neither "sales" nor a "nominations board" obviates the need for the other. Perhaps you take the "top 5 sellers" in a category and the board nominates two of those plus any 3 other products or some such. But at the very least, throwing sales into the mix helps eliminate the need for the nominations board to read every product that crosses their desk. ;)

Hope that's coherent, but I think my "Theory of Quality" with the note that the converse is NOT necessarily true is my main point here. If something sells a lot, it WILL impact the hobby for good or ill, and that means that it WILL influence the games of a lot of people... and that means that it IS an important product.

--The Sigil
 

billd91 said:
If sales empirically measured quality, then the best movie of all time is Titanic because, according to Box Office Mojo, it ranks as the highest in worldwide gross sales of all time. While many people consider it a good movie, I doubt we'd find all that much agreement on these boards that it's the best of all time.
Sales can depend too much on the size of the print run, the market penetration of the company, the breadth of the marketing campaign, the price of the product, and so on. These are things important to generating good sales for a product and making a successful company, but they are tangential to the actual quality of the product.
Yeah, I'm aware of all your issues. I'm not trying to claim that sales are really a good indicator of quality, just that they are the only objective indicator, poor as it is, of quality. Any other indicator is 100% subjective by default.
 

Nisarg said:
This is hardly an unfounded concern. A lot of the people that most strongly opposed Ryan Dancey's vision are also people that think D20 is the antichrist of gaming, and would like to see an industry where a small group of pseudo-intellectuals dictate from on high which games are considered "art".
The person who is most publicly identified with opposing Ryan Dancey's vision for the industry is the owner of a company that produces d20 content almost exclusively -- very popular d20 content, I might add. So I would suggest that this charge is largely bollocks. Likewise, your insinuation that the two sides were "fix GAMA" (Dancey) or "leave GAMA exactly as it is" is entirely bollocks; both sides wanted to institute changes, they just disagreed on the nature of those changes.

KoOS
 

Joshua Dyal said:
I'm not trying to claim that sales are really a good indicator of quality, just that they are the only objective indicator, poor as it is, of quality. Any other indicator is 100% subjective by default.

Yes, but since "quality" is a subjective term, I don't see why we should be looking for an objective measure. Even if objectivity were, in and of itself, a selling point, sales are simply too tainted by historical economics to be useful for measuring the quality of a current product.

Heck, a good chunk of the advantage WotC now has in sales of D&D products is based on how well Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon sold some years ago. I don't see how that bears on how good, objectively, Unearthed Arcana is now.
 

Nisarg said:
Then please, please, Rasyr, BillD, anyone on the "other side" of this debate, please give us your definition of "quality"!
Quality is a highly subjective term that is hard to describe. No matter how you slice it, each person will have their own standards of quality. My idea of what constitutes quality is different from yours, and from everybody elses.

That is why no one person decides who gets the awards.

Please note that what it boils down to is the following two sentences:

1) High sales are not an indicator of quality, they are an indicator of popularity or of greater marketing and/or distribution.
2) Awards that are supposed to be based upon quality should not be swayed by sales or popularity, but should be judged on its actual quality (writing, rules, graphics layout, etc.) as determined by concensus of those voting for the awards.

Is that so hard to understand?

Nisarg said:
Note that it apparently cannot include "financial success" as one of its defining terms.
And ideally, for me to take you seriously, it should amount to something more than "the games I like are obviously quality just because i feel they're good".

Now you are just be facetious. heh.

Nisarg said:
Why is it that, in almost anything, the crowd that say "quality can never have anything to do with financial success or the public's likes" are typically the ones who are selling something no one is buying?
You know, people might take things you say a little more seriously if you did not always have to tack on these little snide attacks. It does not matter how you phrase it Nisarg, but comments like these are nothing more than personal attacks upon the people dabating you.
 

Rasyr said:
Quality is a highly subjective term that is hard to describe. No matter how you slice it, each person will have their own standards of quality. My idea of what constitutes quality is different from yours, and from everybody elses.
...snip...
2) Awards that are supposed to be based upon quality should not be swayed by sales or popularity, but should be judged on its actual quality (writing, rules, graphics layout, etc.) as determined by concensus of those voting for the awards.
but as you say, everyone has their own differing opinions of what quality is. therefore, an "award for quality" that is determined by someone other than myself is completely irrelevant to me.

why should i care who wins the Origins Awards, since i have no realistic expectation that it will match my own idiosyncratic idea of "quality"?
 

billd91 said:
You're never going to be satisfied with anything we propose, or should I say you're never going to take anything we say seriously, becaues there is no objective definition of quality that everyone will agree on. That's the nature of subjective review. So I'm tempted to ask why I should bother.

Of course he isn't, apparently not so long as we have a viewpoint that runs contrary to that of what Ryan Dancey has said. That is something I have noticed...

From everything that I have heard Nisarg say, his opinions vary not a single jot from the source. It is almost fanatical in nature, I think.

I think that I am just going to stop responding to him now. He half-way concedes that quality is not tied to sales, but then turns right back around insisting that sales should be part of the criteria for quality based awards, insisting that sales = quality.

I have better things to do than trying to change the mind of somebody who refuses to even consider other viewpoints.
 

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