Dark Fantasy
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Nightstorm
First Post
Well I guess I just have two questions:
1. If it bothered you so much in what they were doing why did you hang out with them?
2. Where are they now? what kind of people are they NOW?
1. If it bothered you so much in what they were doing why did you hang out with them?
2. Where are they now? what kind of people are they NOW?
s/LaSH
First Post
Hm, an interesting topic...
I played when I was a young teen, in fact my circle of gamers were all students at a male-only school. Read in that what you will. Some of the article seemed familiar, but my experiences were fairly different.
The gamers I was involved with were not really role-players. They'd let the games devolve into bouts of silliness, making up level 2 spells like 'nuclear firestorm' ... I suspect the only reason things didn't decay into munchkinism is because they didn't have the rules to do it, and they didn't have the patience to make them up on their own. We rarely kept characters between sessions.
I was probably the odd one out, because I actually wanted to play, but they eventually gave up on the game. Shortly afterwards I moved cities and lost contact.
Today I'm running an actual campaign. It's my first, and it's fairly tame compared to some of the stories I've heard. It has violence in it, but the players are mature enough to actually refrain from violence for RPing reasons even when it would be in their best interests to fight. They fight specifically to protect their homes or innocent lives. They're very nice, actually. They've participated in precisely two prisoner interrogations, and neither of them resulted in physical harm.
It's dark fantasy, but with an important difference: The darkness is all mine. If they really wanted, the PCs could be taking over the world right now. They don't. So instead I explore themes of good and evil by tempting them, challenging them, and presenting them with evil. This is the counterpart of a Dark Fantasy of immaturity. What would an immature dark fantasist munchkin do if you gave them a weapon that could be used either to subdue or to hack people in half? Probably not what my priest did, which is tolerate the thing but only use it as a last resort. (The priest has used it twice. Once he lost spellcasting ability. The second time he died.)
Basically, I just wanted to point out that Dark Fantasy is what you make of it. We made it something heroic, and capitalised on the freedom of role-playing to advance without conflict. (The body count's still pretty high, but, to quote Arnie, "They were all bad".) Teenagers, on the other hand, can be more trouble than they're worth... if you get a bad bunch. Everything depends on the people involved.
However, I do like the idea of gaining XP for building a monument... wish they'd make rules for that.
I played when I was a young teen, in fact my circle of gamers were all students at a male-only school. Read in that what you will. Some of the article seemed familiar, but my experiences were fairly different.
The gamers I was involved with were not really role-players. They'd let the games devolve into bouts of silliness, making up level 2 spells like 'nuclear firestorm' ... I suspect the only reason things didn't decay into munchkinism is because they didn't have the rules to do it, and they didn't have the patience to make them up on their own. We rarely kept characters between sessions.
I was probably the odd one out, because I actually wanted to play, but they eventually gave up on the game. Shortly afterwards I moved cities and lost contact.
Today I'm running an actual campaign. It's my first, and it's fairly tame compared to some of the stories I've heard. It has violence in it, but the players are mature enough to actually refrain from violence for RPing reasons even when it would be in their best interests to fight. They fight specifically to protect their homes or innocent lives. They're very nice, actually. They've participated in precisely two prisoner interrogations, and neither of them resulted in physical harm.
It's dark fantasy, but with an important difference: The darkness is all mine. If they really wanted, the PCs could be taking over the world right now. They don't. So instead I explore themes of good and evil by tempting them, challenging them, and presenting them with evil. This is the counterpart of a Dark Fantasy of immaturity. What would an immature dark fantasist munchkin do if you gave them a weapon that could be used either to subdue or to hack people in half? Probably not what my priest did, which is tolerate the thing but only use it as a last resort. (The priest has used it twice. Once he lost spellcasting ability. The second time he died.)
Basically, I just wanted to point out that Dark Fantasy is what you make of it. We made it something heroic, and capitalised on the freedom of role-playing to advance without conflict. (The body count's still pretty high, but, to quote Arnie, "They were all bad".) Teenagers, on the other hand, can be more trouble than they're worth... if you get a bad bunch. Everything depends on the people involved.
However, I do like the idea of gaining XP for building a monument... wish they'd make rules for that.
NoOneofConsequence
First Post
Absolutely uncertain
These dark fantasy paragraphs must be doing my mind in, I'm quite sure I couldn't find the point (or the need for the astonishingly defensive, flameproofing intro).
One thing I will say is the IME teenage males swear like the mutant offspring of drill instructors and Hollywood action scripts (if these two things were actually capable of breeding).
I personally have a couple of rpg acts of torture to my credit (& shame) from my teenage years.
I recognise the world which E of N was referencing but I can assure everyone that there is a cure:
a full time job
tax (federal and state)
impotence
finding a hair in your big mac (tm)
having a child
having said child get ill
in other words life as an adult human being. Teenagers are going through the most complex, biologically unstable and abused periods of human life. They think in extremes; they fantasise in extremes; they suffer in extremes and then they grow up. Frankly, unless your friends rapist, arsonist 100 level characters caused them to take a high powered firearm to school for a "special dungeon hack", then I'm not worried.
That thing with the dark fantasy paragraphs though...hmmm...I'd have a doctor look at that...or maybe a shrink...maybe a lit professor?
These dark fantasy paragraphs must be doing my mind in, I'm quite sure I couldn't find the point (or the need for the astonishingly defensive, flameproofing intro).
One thing I will say is the IME teenage males swear like the mutant offspring of drill instructors and Hollywood action scripts (if these two things were actually capable of breeding).
I personally have a couple of rpg acts of torture to my credit (& shame) from my teenage years.
I recognise the world which E of N was referencing but I can assure everyone that there is a cure:
a full time job
tax (federal and state)
impotence
finding a hair in your big mac (tm)
having a child
having said child get ill
in other words life as an adult human being. Teenagers are going through the most complex, biologically unstable and abused periods of human life. They think in extremes; they fantasise in extremes; they suffer in extremes and then they grow up. Frankly, unless your friends rapist, arsonist 100 level characters caused them to take a high powered firearm to school for a "special dungeon hack", then I'm not worried.
That thing with the dark fantasy paragraphs though...hmmm...I'd have a doctor look at that...or maybe a shrink...maybe a lit professor?
Tewligan
First Post
Then why was this posted? Even though you said that you weren't giving your opinions, I think they come through pretty clearly. Right after your rather iffy listing of what constitutes "dark fantasy", you follow it up with "Scary, isn't it?" Throughout the thread you refer to the nature of teenaged boys, and you obviously believe that they're easily influenced by literature that rewards violence. This is clearly a continuation of other threads which got the lockdown. Haughty demands that this not become a contentious thread don't mean very much when you've filled over a third of a page with thinly veiled condemnations of a gaming style and the material which supports it - a gaming style, incidentally, which sounds like an over-the-top Monty Haul game that owes more to raging teenage testosterone and "Faces of Death" than to the XP chart in the DMG.Edena_of_Neith said:
I know, I shouldn't bother to ask why you posted this, as you rather sternly warned people not to ask or infer anything. Hm. The closest I come to agreeing with this whole thing is thinking that this thread should maybe be closed. This particular dead horse has all ready been beaten (and pulped), and something good has yet to come from it.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Okay I agree here with Serge and the rest. Edena, I think you need to rethink what constitute "dark fantasy" and what is just plain "crud" as I call it. You know I'm a pretty open minded guy. If someone came up to me and say "Gee Nightfall, you know I think I'd like to play in your Hollowfaust campaign but I'd really like to be evil." "I'd say, "Alright but you have to abide by rules, like no killing party members, (at least not intentionally!) and certainly no random killing spree) I think our society has taken this love of killing and glorifying WITHOUT looking at the side effects. Serial Killers are often caught BECAUSE they slip up. Spree killers, because eventually they get caught for being stupid. Rapists and murderers may not always be convicted, but in magical society where innocent and guilt are at least a tad bit easier to determine, I don't see many murderers walking free unless they have VAST powers at their own disposal. Which again makes me wonder why they just don't use patsies?
Anyway, I found this posting more than a tad distasteful, and also in light of all the "controversy" over "Evil books", just another sad statement on the way things have gone in our society.
Anyway, I found this posting more than a tad distasteful, and also in light of all the "controversy" over "Evil books", just another sad statement on the way things have gone in our society.
Dragongirl
First Post
I tried reading the first post in this thread and I am afraid I got lost in it. But I think the gist of it was that Dark Fantasy has to have graphic details of rape, murder, torture etc, and that this is normal for teenage boys.
Well, as for the latter I was never a teenage boy so I don't know if there is some inner struggle they all go through when they think this way. But based on my experiences with my friends I don't see this as being true. Maybe I just never hung out with the people that liked to torture little animals and wanted to rape anything that moves.
Now on to Dark Fantasy, I don't think that this genre has to be explicit in it's darker ways, and also don't think the genre has to mean rape and the other "viler" things. As someone pointed out Ravenloft is dark fantasy, and it is no where near the vile end of the spectrum.
The vile deeds themselves can be written about without being explicit. For instance we have half orcs and half elves. Most of us, even if we do not say so understand that a vast majority of the prior and at least some of the latter are a product of rape. Do we have to get explicit with what went on in each case? No, we just let it settle in the backs of our minds. Murder? Well as pointed out a lot of this game is about killing things, some of those things have families and children and many characters wont think twice of killing an entire tribe of goblins, even the defenseless babies.
I think it all depends on how you go about some of these "vile" concepts. If you find yourself part of a group that goes around raping and killing everyone in their path and you object to that, why are you still playing with them? Personally I find that kind of game revolting and would not participate in it. On the other hand I like some things dark. I think things like cannibalism, slavery, sacrifices, etc add to the feel of an adventure and don't mind them TO A DEGREE. Going into great detail of what tortures you did to someone to get the information to save the village for example goes too far. Things can just be glanced over and get it accomplished.
In the end it is all up to the individual how "dark" or "vile" they want what they participate in to be. I like to write up campaign worlds, just for the fun of it and sometimes I like to add something that to me adds spice to it, but others may find offensive. For example I have a friend that I try to help out with his campaigns, and he refuses to allow things like eunachs and unnaturally adjusted bodies (lip plates, elongated necks, etc) all of which I took from real earth cultures. Does this make him wrong? No just he has a different opinion of what is "vile".
Hope I didn't ramble on too long.
Well, as for the latter I was never a teenage boy so I don't know if there is some inner struggle they all go through when they think this way. But based on my experiences with my friends I don't see this as being true. Maybe I just never hung out with the people that liked to torture little animals and wanted to rape anything that moves.
Now on to Dark Fantasy, I don't think that this genre has to be explicit in it's darker ways, and also don't think the genre has to mean rape and the other "viler" things. As someone pointed out Ravenloft is dark fantasy, and it is no where near the vile end of the spectrum.
The vile deeds themselves can be written about without being explicit. For instance we have half orcs and half elves. Most of us, even if we do not say so understand that a vast majority of the prior and at least some of the latter are a product of rape. Do we have to get explicit with what went on in each case? No, we just let it settle in the backs of our minds. Murder? Well as pointed out a lot of this game is about killing things, some of those things have families and children and many characters wont think twice of killing an entire tribe of goblins, even the defenseless babies.
I think it all depends on how you go about some of these "vile" concepts. If you find yourself part of a group that goes around raping and killing everyone in their path and you object to that, why are you still playing with them? Personally I find that kind of game revolting and would not participate in it. On the other hand I like some things dark. I think things like cannibalism, slavery, sacrifices, etc add to the feel of an adventure and don't mind them TO A DEGREE. Going into great detail of what tortures you did to someone to get the information to save the village for example goes too far. Things can just be glanced over and get it accomplished.
In the end it is all up to the individual how "dark" or "vile" they want what they participate in to be. I like to write up campaign worlds, just for the fun of it and sometimes I like to add something that to me adds spice to it, but others may find offensive. For example I have a friend that I try to help out with his campaigns, and he refuses to allow things like eunachs and unnaturally adjusted bodies (lip plates, elongated necks, etc) all of which I took from real earth cultures. Does this make him wrong? No just he has a different opinion of what is "vile".
Hope I didn't ramble on too long.
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