Dark Sun Conversion - classes

[Staffan]

Templar
Alignment: Any non-good. Few are Chaotic, but it happens.
Hit die: d8
Class skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int).
Skill points: 4+Int modifier.

										Spell progression
Lvl	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Class features			0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
1	+0	+2	+0	+2	Rebuke/command undead,		2  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —
					call upon slave,
					judge slave, literacy
2	+1	+3	+0	+3	Enter freeman’s house		3  1  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —
3	+2	+3	+1	+3	Requisition soldiers		3  1  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —
4	+3	+4	+1	+4	Accuse freeman			4  2  1  —  —  —  —  —  —  —
5	+3	+4	+1	+4	Access palaces and temples	4  2  1  —  —  —  —  —  —  —
6	+4	+5	+2	+5	Requisition funds		4  2  2  1  —  —  —  —  —  —
7	+5	+5	+2	+5	Judge freeman			5  3  2  1  —  —  —  —  —  —
8	+6/1	+6	+2	+6					5  3  2  2  1  —  —  —  —  —
9	+6/1	+6	+3	+6					5  3  3  2  1  —  —  —  —  —
10	+7/2	+7	+3	+7	Accuse noble			5  3  3  2  2  1  —  —  —  —
11	+8/3	+7	+3	+7					5  4  3  3  2  1  —  —  —  —
12	+9/4	+8	+4	+8					5  4  3  3  2  2  1  —  —  —
13	+9/4	+8	+4	+8					5  4  4  3  3  2  1  —  —  —
14	+10/5	+9	+4	+9					5  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  —  —
15	+11/6/1	+9	+5	+9	Judge noble			6  5  5  4  4  4  3  2  1  —
16	+12/7/2	+10	+5	+10					6  5  5  5  4  4  3  3  2  1
17	+12/7/2	+10	+5	+10	Grant pardons			6  5  5  5  5  4  4  3  2  2
18	+13/8/3	+11	+6	+11					7  6  6  6  6  5  5  4  4  3
19	+14/9/4	+11	+6	+11					7  6  6  6  6  6  5  5  4  4
20	+15/10/5 +12	+6	+12					7  6  6  6  6  6  5  5  5  5

Class features
Armor and weapon proficiencies: A templar is trained in wearing Light and Medium armor and wielding Shields, as well as all Simple and Martial weapons.
Spellcasting: Templars cast spells from the cleric spell list, as well as all four elemental spheres. Their spells are based on their Wisdom: the save DC is equal to 10+spell level+Wis modifier, and they can’t cast spells of higher level than their Wis-10. Note that they have no ability to convert prepared spells into anything else.
Rebuke/command undead (Su): Just like evil clerics in the core rules.
Literacy: Templars are taught to read and write, unlike most other classes.
Secular/administrative powers: In addition to their magical and combative abilities, templars have many rights within their city-state by virtue of their position in the templar hierarchy (which is decided strictly by templar level). A templar may generally not keep more than one person per level in the dungeons, and may judge or pardon no more than one person per week. If another templar contests his decisions, the highest-level templar is in charge. If the templars are of the same level, they will have to search out a higher-level templar in order to decide on the issue. The abilities in question are:​

• A templar may call upon a slave to do his bidding at any time. Slaves who refuse face capital punishment.​
• In any matter involving disobedience or the actions of a slave, the templar may pass judgment on that slave at any time. The judgment and punishment is up to the whims of the templar.​
• At 2nd level, the templar may legally enter the house of a freeman. The homeowner has no right to stop the templar, under punishment of imprisonment and/or execution.​
• At 3rd level, the templar can requisition soldiers, up to 1d4 1st-level templars lead by a 2nd-level templar centurion. The templar can do this whenever he wishes, but the soldiers can’t be ordered to leave the city-state without permission from the sorcerer-king.​
• A templar can accuse a freeman of disloyalty or similar crimes at 4th level. Regardless of evidence, this will generally lead to the freeman being stuck in prison for as long as the templar wishes.​
• A templar gains access to all areas in temples and palaces upon reaching 5th level. Before then, the templar is restricted from certain areas (libraries, council chambers) unless ordered there by a templar who does have access.​
• At 6th level, the templar can requisition funds from the city treasury for investigations etc. Each month, the templar can requisition up to 1d10 gp per level, multiplied by the templar’s level again (so an 8th level templar would get 8d10×8 gp). This money is supposed to be used for official business, but there is little accounting needed.​
• Passing judgment on a freeman is allowed to templars of 7th level or higher. The freeman’s level must be at least two levels less than the templar’s, and the templar can levy any punishment he sees fit (a fine, execution, slavery, flogging, etc.). If the freeman resists, he will become an outlaw to be killed if caught. No real evidence is needed.​
• A 10th level templar can accuse a noble just like a freeman.​
• At 15th level he can pass judgment on a noble, again working pretty much like the freeman ability. Note that while the templar does have the legal power to do this, nobles often have contacts that can make life hard for the templar.​
• A 17th level templar is able to grant pardons in the name of the sorcerer-king. Only the king himself can nullify such pardons.​

And that's the last of the classes I'll do in this conversion. Do comment!​

 

[Staffan]

How does your conversion compare with the fully-released 3.5E conversion as posted by http://www.athas.org/ ?

Mind you, the basic premises they had to operate under was (1) it had to be as close to the core rulebooks as possible (per WOTC guidelines allowing the "official" status) and (2) when in doubt, the Prism Pentad takes precedence over the previously-released game material (per their own decisions).

Well, I think my conversion places more importance on sticking close to Dark Sun than to the 3e rules - for example, the clerics have a common list and one of four elemental lists, rather than a common list and two domains. I've also treated defilers and preservers as separate classes, rather than the combination they have at athas.org.

Also, I consider the Prism Pentad to be just a story, whereas I am more concerned with converting the actual game.

 

[ciaran00]

I think I agree with you about athas.org. They have butchered the Dark Sun classes and added too much of their own random ideas (it doesn't appear too much like Dark Sun anymore).

However, yours falls short of Dark Sun as well. I think you should be able to stay true to every core class from the world, knocking out Bard spells completely and giving them the ability to work poisons (maybe even magical ones). Also, Gladiator?? Good god, they're NOT fighters. I like how you've treated Defiler, though it irks me to see that all classes have access to the Defiler class (even Half Giants and Thri-Kreen!). You're letting 3E dictate too much about what Dark Sun is... and when I see conversions of this nature, I tend to think that Dark Sun is best left alone, dead as it is. Originally Dark Sun broke several 2E conventions and required its own rule sets in several areas. Maybe you're unwilling to do the work. This conversion is better than athas.org... but not a satisfying one, in my opinion.

Yes, I run my Dark Sun game in 3E.

ciaran

 

[Heretic Apostate]

If you can find Strutinan on the WOTC boards, he had an "adapt Dark Sun rules to 3E" approach, rather than the (as required by WOTC, please note, so don't criticize them for something that they couldn't help) "adapt 3E to Dark Sun, trying to keep the flavor rather than the rules" approach adopted by athas.org.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I've seen thread after thread attacking the folks at athas.org for doing exactly what WOTC required in allowing an official fan conversion. It's not their fault if the rules seem too 3E-ish, or if they follow the Prism Pentad novels more than the boxed sets and rulebooks. They had to do it that way.

 

[Staffan]

However, yours falls short of Dark Sun as well. I think you should be able to stay true to every core class from the world, knocking out Bard spells completely and giving them the ability to work poisons (maybe even magical ones).

I considered that, but I think athas.org did a pretty decent conversion of the bard, actually. I also considered just replacing the spells with level-based poisons, or possibly a poison-creating system (where you'd combine primary and secondary damage with save DC and get a final cost or something like that), but decided it was a bit too much work.

Also, Gladiator?? Good god, they're NOT fighters.

The thing is that the 2e gladiator was a warrior that specialized in hand-to-hand combat, and the 2e Dark Sun fighter was a warrior that specialized in large-scale combat (getting abilities with fortifications, leading troops, and so on). I do think that if I create the appropriate feats (one to mimic armor optimization, another for reducing and/or negating non-proficiency penalties, and then a bunch to mimic the large-scale combat abilities of the fighter) I will get pretty close to the Dark Sun gladiators and fighters.

I like how you've treated Defiler, though it irks me to see that all classes have access to the Defiler class (even Half Giants and Thri-Kreen!).

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this in the races conversion, or possibly just in the manifesto (OK, that sounds real pretentious, but...). Only elves, humans and half-elves can be defilers, and only those three plus halflings can be preservers (I might allow mul too - it was a bit unclear whether their ability to be considered human for class purposes allowed them to take classes mul couldn't ordinarily get). Dwarves, thri-kreen, half-giants, and their ilk need not apply. That's the only race/class limitation I'll have, though. If a half-giant wants to be a rogue, he's welcome. He'll suck at it, but he can do it.

 

[Staffan]

Sorry if I sound rude, but I've seen thread after thread attacking the folks at athas.org for doing exactly what WOTC required in allowing an official fan conversion. It's not their fault if the rules seem too 3E-ish, or if they follow the Prism Pentad novels more than the boxed sets and rulebooks. They had to do it that way.

Yeah, I know... but it still doesn't make their clerics, wizards, druids or templars more palatable to me.

 

[ciaran00]

I considered that, but I think athas.org did a pretty decent conversion of the bard, actually.

Yeah they did. It's just the addition of random elements like the crazy-powerful "Slippery Mind" ability that drew me off of it.

I also considered just replacing the spells with level-based poisons, or possibly a poison-creating system (where you'd combine primary and secondary damage with save DC and get a final cost or something like that), but decided it was a bit too much work.

Understandable... it IS a lot of work, esp. since crafting poisons isn't so rare anymore (only Necromancers and Dark Sun bards in 2e).

The thing is that the 2e gladiator was a warrior that specialized in hand-to-hand combat, and the 2e Dark Sun fighter was a warrior that specialized in large-scale combat (getting abilities with fortifications, leading troops, and so on).

Proficient in ALL weapons. That's the one I'm thinking of. I guess it's "unbalanced" but large scale combat really is more than 3e allows for on a general basis. There was also fame. Athas.org gave the gladiator an extra attack that's hand-to-hand flurry of blows style. So if he took penalties, he could attack with his weapons, then smack someone with an elbow or a knee.

I do think that if I create the appropriate feats (one to mimic armor optimization, another for reducing and/or negating non-proficiency penalties, and then a bunch to mimic the large-scale combat abilities of the fighter) I will get pretty close to the Dark Sun gladiators and fighters.

Yeah, you probably could.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this in the races conversion, or possibly just in the manifesto

Ok, I found it. Yeah. I never understood the thri-kreen can't be a thief thing.

ciaran

 

[Staffan]

Proficient in ALL weapons. That's the one I'm thinking of.

A (looong) while ago I posted a pair of feats that reduced/eliminated non-proficiency penalties in the house rules forum. Basically, for one feat you reduce the penalty to -2, and for another you remove it entirely. You're still not considered "proficient" in the weapons, so you'd need to spend a feat to gain proficiency before taking feats like weapon focus or improved crit. I think that mimics the gladiator's universal proficiency back in 2e reasonably well.

There was also fame.

Fame is more of a role-playing thing that should probably be left out of mechanics, just like you don't get free armies anymore in 3e.