D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[toucanbuzz]

IMO, this removes one of the main drawbacks of being a defiler: the lack of subtlety. A defiler should be more powerful magically than an equal-level preserver, but it's super obvious when they cast spells because there's a great big black circle around them.

Ideally, defiling should be an option for preservers who need an extra boost, but if you do it enough you become a defiler. It's a bit like the Force in that way – the Dark Side is happy to help out a Light Side user in a tight spot, but it exacts a toll for doing so, and if you do it enough the Light Side will stop responding.

This was a popular AD&D design: evil is the quicker path to power. We saw it with Dragonlance's Wizards: white robes (good), red robes (neutral), or black robes (evil), in which black robes advanced in levels quicker than their counterparts. But, it never seemed to make sense. Why would my choice to learn Abjuration or Necromancy be dependent on my world views? Wouldn't it instead be my application of those powers? Could an evil wizard not use abjuration to deflect damage away from himself as he burns down the orphanage?

Defiling fit the same bill. It's more like a drug than anything else, and it doesn't make sense that a person would be committed to a subclass or AD&D class solely based on one, or a handful, of defiling choices. Even Preservers can engage in non-good acts if they're a hardcore believer that "defile once" and you deserve to die regardless of the reason. And the reason is the theme on Athas. Why not, just this once, suck one of those trees dry to stop the Templars from arresting or killing civilians who did nothing more than turn a blind eye when you ran through their shop to escape? And after that one time, why not, just that one more time, suck those faro crops dry to make sure the bandits don't raid that farm's cistern? And after that next time, you keep making excuses. It doesn't mean you're beholden to defile every time. But the bar that was once perhaps set so high for what would cause you to violate precious life gets a little bit lower, and that's the real toll.

But, one who defiles has never been required to destroy life to cast a spell. It was taught as a secretive weapon, an advantage. Indeed, sorcerer kings keep defilers on reserve to serve them while destroying all others in their cities. They aren't going to keep anyone around who would suck their precious gardens, parks, and crops dry when doing routine casting. The arenas keep necromancers around to animate the dead for entertainment. They can do their job without taking more than they need, even if they'd defile in a heartbeat to save their own necks.

 

[Remathilis]

Agreed. PC mages are kinda antithetical to the sword & sorcery vibe of the setting.

My general opinion is that Dark Sun is an interesting RPG setting, but a terrible D&D setting. Ideally, it should be it's own thing unshackled from the assumptions of D&D, but it isn't so the setting must make room for them. Even in 2e, I don't think you could have sold a D&D setting without PC spellcaster classes. I guarantee you couldn't do that with the current 5e design paradigms.

 

[Charlaquin]

My general opinion is that Dark Sun is an interesting RPG setting, but a terrible D&D setting. Ideally, it should be it's own thing unshackled from the assumptions of D&D, but it isn't so the setting must make room for them. Even in 2e, I don't think you could have sold a D&D setting without PC spellcaster classes. I guarantee you couldn't do that with the current 5e design paradigms.

I think a lot of it only works because it’s D&D. Like, you could certainly do a setting just like Dark Sun with another system and it could be good; great, even. But a lot of the choices are pointed subversions of D&D conventions, and I think they would lose some of that impact if it wasn’t D&D.

 

[carnage220]

Only got through 3 pages before i was compelled to reply so i apologize if it has been brought up.
i think the biggest issue is the incorrect use of the term theme. The theme of dark sun is not the dead magic drained world, that is the setting ala where it takes place. the theme is the survival of the inhabitants of the world. Where magic users are killed instantly if discovered. Where the existence of the regular people is a struggle and the "will" to survive is needed. Psionics is the evolutionary direction the people and creatures of the world went, it is how they evolved to survive the planet. it is very much a part of the existence of all the creatures. psionics is part of the story and you can have a dead world with struggle but without psionics as the evolutionary path it isn't dark sun.

 

[Remathilis]

Its quite curious to me how many posters have mentioned psionics in Darksun as a trope of post-apocalyptic fiction. That's not quite right. Psionics are also a trope of Sword and Planet fiction--as are novel domestic animals and dying worlds (not to mention large green multi limbed tharks, ahem... thri-kreen). Darksun borrows A LOT from Barsoom, and I'm mildly surprised how smoothly that flew under the radar here.

I'm going to preface that my Barsoom knowledge is limited, but I kinda feel Athas tried to be "Conan visits Barsoom as written by Vance", but somehow misses the mark on all takes. I'm not exactly sure why. I generally like the pulp genres it tries to emulate, but I feel if I wanted to play in that sort of setting, I'd take Primeval Thule over Dark Sun.

 

[Shardstone]

I'm going to preface that my Barsoom knowledge is limited, but I kinda feel Athas tried to be "Conan visits Barsoom as written by Vance", but somehow misses the mark on all takes. I'm not exactly sure why. I generally like the pulp genres it tries to emulate, but I feel if I wanted to play in that sort of setting, I'd take Primeval Thule over Dark Sun.

You just described a completely different but very cool setting I'd love to play in.

 

[Istbor]

Psionics is not a huge draw to me. Too many bad experiences and players who abused the unbalanced nature of the powers in past editions. Though, I did play an Ardent in 4e and that was kind of fun. Much more of an empath I felt than the old school psionic users. Then again, 4e was a horse apart. That most of the power sources all acted similarly and on a level playing field probably made the experience more enjoyable to me.

To the topic at hand. I think Dark Sun could tell some really cool and different stories completely without the need for psionics, and yes, still be Dark Sun.
In the past whenever we played in that setting, psionics was relatively untouched. Both by players and the DM.

I want others to be able to have their fun. And that psionics isn't needed, but is included is great. Today however, I am unsure. As others have pointed out, I think the design choices D&D will take with it, are going to leave some with a bad taste in their mouth. Older players want to feel that same feeling they had in the past while playing and believe this is what everyone experienced, and should experience when in Athas. That isn't bad. If you had a great experience, you want others to have the same thing!

However, new players haven't played there in the past. Heck, some people playing D&D today have probably never heard of Dark Sun. They have no expectation, other than a new setting will feel similar, but different to what they have been playing. Themes and feels may change, but D&D 5e will still be at the core. Probably means psionics are going to feel a lot like what is mechanically already available. I personally am fine with that. Less for me to have to figure out. Same for players. As well, the tacked on feel of psionics in the past (for me) was a huge reason I grew to dislike it.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This was a popular AD&D design: evil is the quicker path to power. We saw it with Dragonlance's Wizards: white robes (good), red robes (neutral), or black robes (evil), in which black robes advanced in levels quicker than their counterparts. But, it never seemed to make sense. Why would my choice to learn Abjuration or Necromancy be dependent on my world views? Wouldn't it instead be my application of those powers? Could an evil wizard not use abjuration to deflect damage away from himself as he burns down the orphanage?

I think a common mistake is to view AD&D (or OD&D) as being an attempt at simulation; that's when you run into issues like, "But wait a minute, this doesn't make sense! That wouldn't happen in the real world!"

Setting aside issues of the "real world" as opposed to unicorns and fireballs, early D&D was very much designed to be a game. In the words of Gygax:

A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly on adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author’s opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously.

For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere. Those who desire to create and populate imaginary worlds with larger-than-life heroes and villains, who seek relaxation with a fascinating game, and who generally believe games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste.

That's why you often see concepts and rules in OD&D and AD&D that are applied in order to make the game more enjoyable, even though they would not apply in the real world.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think wild talents belong in. I probably could do without psions.

 

[keynup]

I'll be in the camp of you can play DS without psionics, but having psionics increases the flavor. Like eating McDonalds fries without salt.
Psionics adds to the fear that no matter what someone (thing) looks like, it might have powerful Psionics. Or not being able to tell who in a group has the Psionics to target.

My quick take on wild talents would be a list on cantrip type psionics, that all classes get access too as a bonus. Every 2-3 levels you get more or stronger ones.