Dark Sun in Dungeon #110

[Alzrius]

So, what is WotC's stance with regards to Paizo's Dark Sun treatment (assuming you have been in contact with the current brand manager ... Charles Ryan, I believe)? Are you obligated to support it if WotC says it is official?

I'm guessing that irdeggman wanted this section to be the one of note:

In exchange for providing all of the official new material for an intellectual property, Wizards of the Coast agrees to:

[...]

c.) Have only a single source for all official content, that being your site. Other sites that wish to be listed as part of the IP will be directed to the official website.

The idea here would seem to be that the DS content in Paizo is either in violation of this agreement, or that it cannot be official. Of course, I think both of those interpretations are wrong.

Dragon and Dungeon may be published by Paizo, but they are still WotC's magazines. The fact that they happen to come from Paizo is immaterial. They're still 100% official because they're still written by the same people, in conjunction with WotC and its employees. WotC knew full well that there was DS material being printed for the two magazines. Hence, the section of the contract quoted above does not come into play because the DS material here is not considered to be another official source outside of WotC.

 

[Mach2.5]

What's the hangup here about officiality? Seriously, in the end, does it matter? From what I'm seeing, WOTC has 3 forms that denote what is canon for each particular setting: first, all material published by the parent company/IP holder (TSR/WOTC), second, the fansites, who have been given in writing FULL use of official status, and third, independant publications that are permited usage of said IP, who also gain FULL use of official status.

There's a contradiction here. Two sources with the same status are not consistant with one another (yeah, gee, go figure). You can cry and moan about which take precedent over the other, but they're both as legit as one another. As the sun rises daily, so too does each resource have the exact same status. Yes, the EXACT same status.

Normally, one would then be forced to go by the latest publication as the source of what takes precedence over another. In this case, Dragon/Dungeon has the topper. But all Athas.org then has to do is revise/re-update their own material, and then it becomes the topper.

But once again, what the heck does it matter? If two sources conflict, does it really make a bleeding hearted difference which is the most official source? Nope.

Its not an arguement with a winning side. Just ask the Greyhawk fans who've been lamenting over what's canon and what's not for more then 12 years now. If none of them can come to a concrete decision, then its not likely that this one ever will either.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

An alternate way of viewing it is that the Dragon/Dungeon material will be printed, distributed, delivered, sold, go out of print, and vanish into the past just like every other issue of Dragon and Dungeon, while Athas.org remains available, for free, and will continue to grow and prosper just fine regardless.

At most, the articles will provide some fuel to those that don't care for Athas.org's conversion and would like to grandstand on their perceived decline in status, but it likely won't amount to much.

 

[WanderingMonster]

...the Dragon/Dungeon material will be printed, distributed, delivered, ...

This is a huge advantage over online content.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

This is a huge advantage over online content.

As a product line, yes, it would be a huge advantage. As an article in a single issue of a monthly magazine, though, it naturally lacks the market potential; One month of decent sales, a good number of which includes subscriptions to folks that don't care about Dark Sun either way, a handful of trickle-down sales from the past issues rack after that, and then obscurity. Consider it this way: Anyone interested in Spider Moon that didn't get the Polyhedron issue that featured it isn't likely going to find it except by half-a-chance in the bargain bin or by means of illegal scanning.

Compare this to the continued growth, continued support, and desire for community input that already is and will continue to be available at Athas.org. At most, the article can only boost Athas; it will have people that don't know about Dark Sun asking about it, which will inevitably lead them to Athas.org, at which time they have a choice: Stick with a one article conversion that barely touches on the full extent of the setting, or adopt the rules used by the Athas folks. Sure, there will be a few that use the article as a basis of their own development (which may or may not include obtaining the ESDs and doing a full setting conversion), but I'd say that the other option, that of taking what's readily and easily available and virtually guaranteed to have more added to it, will remain the popular choice.

Actually, I don't know if the Athas folks are already doing this, but they probably should consider distributing their "finalized" material through RPGNow, which seems to have no problem with distributing free material; If up to me, I'd release through them immediately after the Dragon issue is released. Granted, it's not up to me, but it's a definate means of grabbing on to the spin-effect of the article and using that momentum to full advantage for themselves.

 

[SSquirrel]

But the one where Chewie (a definite canon character) got killed, that I do not accept.

The funny thing is that Lucas told Salavatore he had to kill one of the core group off, but it was up to him who to kill.

Hagen

 

[Erebus]

An alternate way of viewing it is that the Dragon/Dungeon material will be printed, distributed, delivered, sold, go out of print, and vanish into the past just like every other issue of Dragon and Dungeon, while Athas.org remains available, for free, and will continue to grow and prosper just fine regardless.

Sorry, but I disagree. Because the articles in Dragon/Dungeon are published indirectly by WotC they will probably carry more weight with the casual fan than material produced by a fan site, regardless of the "official" status of each and the medium they are presented in. Furthermore, the articles in general are hitting a wider segment of the market since the readership is composed of both DS fans and non-DS fans. Conversely, the website is an online resource that must be searched for, and it's unlikely non-DS fans would bother to look for it since they have no interest in doing so. Therefore, I think it's more likely that the articles will also do a better job of creating awareness among readers unfamiliar with DS and hopefully draw more fans and interest to the setting. The last DS product was published something like 8 years ago. Current D&D players new to the hobby and/or not currently part of the online community will be getting their first taste of DS in almost a decade.

At most, the articles will provide some fuel to those that don't care for Athas.org's conversion and would like to grandstand on their perceived decline in status, but it likely won't amount to much.

Hmmm. Not really sure what you mean here. I wasn't aware the status of athas.org had really changed.

Edit: spelling

 

[barsoomcore]

never mind

*vows to read the LAST PAGE of the thread before posting, in the future*

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Sorry, but I disagree. Because the articles in Dragon/Dungeon are published indirectly by WotC they will probably carry more weight with the casual fan than material produced by a fan site, regardless of the "official" status of each and the medium they are presented in...

<snipped>

Hmmm. Not really sure what you mean here. I wasn't aware the status of athas.org had really changed.

There isn't a change of status; note that I refer to it as a "perceived" change. You own comment stating that the article "will probably carry more weight" is illustrative of this point.

Furthermore, the articles in general are hitting a wider segment of the market since the readership is composed of both DS fans and non-DS fans. Conversely, the website is an online resource that must be searched for, and it's unlikely non-DS fans would bother to look for it since they have no interest in doing so. Therefore, I think it's more likely that the articles will also do a better job of creating awareness among readers unfamiliar with DS and hopefully draw more fans and interest to the setting. The last DS product was published something like 8 years ago. Current D&D players new to the hobby and/or not currently part of the online community will be getting their first taste of DS in almost a decade.

And it is this new interest that can be of benefit to Athas.org, as I indicated earlier. Renewed interest in the setting will draw people to the Other Worlds board at WotC, it will draw them here to ask, and to other message boards. And at each of them, eventually, someone's going to mention Athas.org (the Dark Sun boards at WotC actually link to it!), and that will send people to that site.

It is at that time that the choice I mentioned earlier (self-develop from a single one-shot article or benefit from continued support) comes into play.

Note that I'm not weighing the validity of one against the other; I'm just saying that, if presented with the option of using a limited distribution (one article in a monthly publication vs a product line printing) or from a source of continued support, the continued support will likely gain a larger following because it will attract two groups of people: those prefer the Athas.org conversion over the article's treatment and those that are using the article and the Athas.org material to create a hybrid.

The only thing about this article that could hurt Athas.org is Athas.org itself; If they rant, condemn, decry, or shun it when new people are showing up at the Dark Sun board, they will be alienating those newly attracted to the setting. If they treat it as an equally valid update/conversion (which they can do without putting down the article or holding it above their own work), then more people will be up to viewing the Athas.org materials. (Heck, the articles not even out yet and these threads are already appearing on various boards, most of them mentioning Athas.org.)

At that time, quality, not source, will be the deciding factor.

As for those without internet access, for whom the article is the only expression of Dark Sun known, this will work against the article. First, they lack the cohesiveness that an internet community focused on one setting has. Second, they will have only the article itself and will thus develop/evolve the setting in a multitude of different ways. Not that either of these are "bad", mind you, just that comparing the potential "article only" games will have for becoming the "standard" for Dark Sun to the potential that "continued support" has, I just have a hard time imagining the "article only" version coming out "on top".

 

[Erebus]

There isn't a change of status; note that I refer to it as a "perceived" change. You own comment stating that the article "will probably carry more weight" is illustrative of this point.

Okay, I see what you're getting at here. You're implying that the material on the athas.org site will be perceived as perhaps less "official" or worthwhile when compared to the new print version in Dragon/Dungeon. For some, this is probably true, but I think others may probably feel this way already. My opinion regarding athas.org, for example, has remained the same - I see their efforts as non-canonical regardless of its level of quality. This isn't meant as a slam against them, it's just the way I already perceive their material.

And it is this new interest that can be of benefit to Athas.org, as I indicated earlier. Renewed interest in the setting will draw people to the Other Worlds board at WotC, it will draw them here to ask, and to other message boards. And at each of them, eventually, someone's going to mention Athas.org (the Dark Sun boards at WotC actually link to it!), and that will send people to that site.

Yes, I agree with you here. In the long run without a WotC or 3rd-party published product line, athas.org and other DS fan-driven sites will be required to once again sustain interest among new fans. In the initial stages of drawing interest, however, I think the articles will do a better job of raising general awareness among casual D&D players than a fan site can hope to - any fan site, not just athas.org. That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if I was unclear.

The only thing about this article that could hurt Athas.org is Athas.org itself; If they rant, condemn, decry, or shun it when new people are showing up at the Dark Sun board, they will be alienating those newly attracted to the setting. If they treat it as an equally valid update/conversion (which they can do without putting down the article or holding it above their own work), then more people will be up to viewing the Athas.org materials. (Heck, the articles not even out yet and these threads are already appearing on various boards, most of them mentioning Athas.org.)

Agreed again. It also helps that the timeline gave them adequate leeway.

At that time, quality, not source, will be the deciding factor.

Very true.

As for those without internet access, for whom the article is the only expression of Dark Sun known, this will work against the article. First, they lack the cohesiveness that an internet community focused on one setting has. Second, they will have only the article itself and will thus develop/evolve the setting in a multitude of different ways. Not that either of these are "bad", mind you, just that comparing the potential "article only" games will have for becoming the "standard" for Dark Sun to the potential that "continued support" has, I just have a hard time imagining the "article only" version coming out "on top".

But at least these people will have been exposed to DS and may seek out OoP material, talk to other gamers regarding the setting, attempt to gain online access, etc., if the material is of interest to them. If these people have no internet access at all in the first place, they simply aren't privy to any of the online DS material. So, although it may not be a "full blown" product, it's better than what they currently are aware of, which is probably nothing if they are also relatively new to the game. I haven't read either article yet, so I'm in no position to judge the quality or thoroughness they lend to the setting. However, I suspect (and hope) it's enough to at least elicit some reaction, good or bad, from those who are discovering DS for the first time.