D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Warpiglet-7]

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[Mind of tempest]

In Ravenloft there were "vampyrs", a type of "hemophages" humanoids, blood-drinkers but not true undeads. These had got secret "blood farms", dungeons with prisons to gather their blood. Should be this censored in 5th?

* Other point maybe we have forgotten is if the sorcerer-kings are the tyrants to be deposed.... somebody could use the setting as an allegory against rulers from the real life, and this could become too dangerous.

* I suppose even if there is slavery in DS or other D&D setting, this shouldn't be available for PCs.

The slavery in DS could be even worse, because with psionic powers and mind-controll the thralls would lose most of free will. Do you know the anime "Redo of Healer"? Not try to imagine a pervert roleplayer creating the Dark Sun version of "Redo of Healer", or fandom writting fanfiction for adults.

* Here we agree slavery is wrong, but I add more, we have to promote the respect of the human dignity. Reporting bigotry is not enough.

* Sorry, maybe it is because I live in a different country, with other troubles, but here I see talking about slavery is like "mentioning the rope at the hanged man's house", as wounds that have not yet hesitated.

* There is in DMGuild a module with the title "Captured by slavers". Then slaver shouldn't be taboo in DMGuild, the reason should be other.

* The faction of the "City of Spires" from the module "the Black Spine" had got a great potential as rivals of the sorcerer-kings.

* What if Rajaats had been killed by a time-traveler from the future?

* Why had hadozees to be rewritten, but no word is said about the "conquistador" vampires from Ixalan setting?

explain the conquistador point?

 

[Kinematics]

As I said before (or possibly in another one of these Dark Sun threads), a quick google ("dark sun slavery legal") had the very first result being a post on reddit about a party who bought a slave, and the DM wondering if the slave should come to love the PC owner as a brother. That post was from last year.

You can go on Reddit and find enough horrific stories of both players and GMs to spend days reading and weeks lying awake in bed with no hope left in humanity. None of them need a particular setting or setting element to inform their awfulness.

Some people will be awful, and being afraid of a topic because somebody can be awful with it does not mean that removing the element will make the people stop being awful. It just means they'll be awful about something else.

As for as my own feelings on Dark Sun, while I read a number of the novels and found them interesting, I never had any interest in playing the setting. Part of that was that I really disliked the D&D system at the time* (5E got me to like it again), and part was that playing in grimdark settings (for example, White Wolf's edgier cousin, Black Dog) doesn't really appeal to me.

* Note: I liked the D&D worlds — I read a huge number of the various Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/Dark Sun/etc novels — I just didn't like the game system.

However just because it doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean I think the very concepts should be suppressed and censored. People like lots of things that I don't care for. I like things my friends don't care for. If something was particularly offensive to someone I knew, I'd avoid bringing it up, but the only thing I'd actively argue down are actual lies, and maybe stupidity.

Dark topics have their place, and oftimes a very important place for certain people in certain points in their lives. For example, see Neon Genesis Evangelion, which had an element which could be perceived as slavery, but which had a deep and meaningful impact on many people's lives, my own included.

As for the poll question: Just because something may seem awful to experience now does not mean it will not be a learning experience for later in life. Maybe the GM learns that being permissive and letting the players run roughshod needs to be curbed, and he needs to hold a stricter moral stance on what is allowed, which in turn influences how he acts in non-gaming life. Maybe the adventure is so awful that it ends up on one of those Reddit threads, as an object lesson to those who will listen. Maybe an edgy teenager makes an ass of himself today, and deeply regrets it 10 years from now, putting a brake on behavior that he can now recognize as awful because he had to go through that with a gaming group and it blew up in his face, rather than suffering from subtle and silent cold shoulders he never recognized.

I would even say that conditioning inclusion of "problematic" content on making it obviously evil, and having an obvious way to fight it, misses the mark. Players can find a way to fight against literally anything. It's not about being told, "That's evil!", as petty moralists love to do. It's about learning about the impact of various elements of the world, and the player learning how to deal with them.

Hiding from a thing does not make the thing go away. It just makes it so that people don't learn how to cope with it, or how to deal with it, or how to talk about it. This is especially true of stories, one of whose main values is teaching us lessons in ways that don't get us killed by forcing us to learn those lessons in actual life experiences.

It may be literally impossible to end slavery, especially in a world where it's pervasive. (It's not like it's extinct even in the real world.) But that doesn't mean you can't do anything. You can help individuals. You can hide families from slavers. You can save towns from raiders. You can help slaves escape. You can lobby (bribe) government officials to make lives easier.

Your characters may want to become as gods, but even gods can't do everything. The value of such dark worlds is learning that even in the face of utter hopelessness, you can still do something. And that's a lesson that translates to the real world far better than being able to defeat anyone who does something you don't like (which sounds like a lesson which gives rise to Karens).

Now, whether a particular company wants to be in the business of publishing such a dark world is another question entirely. Their business is about making money, not fighting against anyone who gets offended by the existence of a concept. Maybe a company like WOTC would approach it by making a second brand for its "dark" offerings (similar to White Wolf/Black Dog). Or maybe they just leave it for others to explore.

Their choice is their choice, and really has nothing to do with the abstract question asked in this thread. The only "problem" would be if they lock the IP up so that no one else can use it ever again, but that's a copyright problem, not a moral problem.

 

[Mark Hope]

I think the hostile response is due to a number of factors.

1. It ignores recent history. WotC got absolutely dogpiled in the last couple of years for the mistakes it's made regarding sensitivity. Candlekeep Mysteries saw all sorts of backlash from one of the authors for editorial changes made to an adventure. And a couple of years before that, you have the whole issue with one of the names in the PHB being removed because of issues. ((sorry, I'm blanking on the name)) Then you have the Hadozee issue which is still in circulation.

2. WotC is very often held to different standards. Paizo flat out announces that it will no longer use slavery in any of its products. And they get a hearty pat on the back for being sensitive. WotC basically says the same thing - they cannot or will not produce Dark Sun because of the problematic themes in the setting, and we've got multiple threads screaming from the hilltops that WotC are a bunch of jerks who don't understand gamers.

3. Add to that, the common refrain that "Well, I'm okay with it in my game, so, why is everyone telling me I can't have what I want?" without even the slightest attempt to accept that the other side REALLY isn't okay with it. "Oh, but, my friend's cousin's sister's half uncle is (insert POC here) and he/she/they are perfectly fine with it. Why is it a problem?"

So, yeah, after banging on this drum for about fifteen years, it does get a bit frustrating to keep having the SAME conversation, over and over and over and over and over again. All with the identical talking points. And no one will even consider potential other avenues to explore. No. We MUST have slavery in the game. But, a kinder, gentler slavery. Not too offensive. Just sort of generally evil slavery. Because, well, we don't want to actually include the real horrors of slavery in our game. Just a sampler set, thanks.

That's fair enough and thank you for setting out your thoughts on the matter. I really do appreciate it. Personally, I wouldn't make any of the points you're citing but I can see how they would lead to frustration. I am in support of addressing problematic content through RPGs (and not necessarily some kind of watered down, kinder gentler version) because doing so properly has real value. But it's not easy and needs real care and thought and consideration of how it affects potential readers and I don't blame WotC one bit for steering clear of it.

 

[MGibster]

WotC is very often held to different standards. Paizo flat out announces that it will no longer use slavery in any of its products. And they get a hearty pat on the back for being sensitive. WotC basically says the same thing - they cannot or will not produce Dark Sun because of the problematic themes in the setting, and we've got multiple threads screaming from the hilltops that WotC are a bunch of jerks who don't understand gamers.

Which is unfair to WotC I think. Were I in their shoes, I wouldn't publish a new edition of Dark Sun either. They're not really in the business of settings anyway, and a significant portion of the audience wouldn't like Dark Sun anyway. The market in 2023 isn't the same as it was in 1991.

 

[Mark Hope]

Which is unfair to WotC I think. Were I in their shoes, I wouldn't publish a new edition of Dark Sun either. They're not really in the business of settings anyway, and a significant portion of the audience wouldn't like Dark Sun anyway. The market in 2023 isn't the same as it was in 1991.

Dark Sun didn't even sell remarkably well in 1991 either. 50k units of the initial boxed set sold and sales just went down from there. Rapidly. WotC are making a solid business decision here, regardless of its artistic merit. Can't really fault them for that.

 

[Faolyn]

You can go on Reddit and find enough horrific stories of both players and GMs to spend days reading and weeks lying awake in bed with no hope left in humanity. None of them need a particular setting or setting element to inform their awfulness.

That was said specifically in reply to DarkCrisis saying that "Heck most PCs would rathe throw gold at a hireling and put that paid employee into serious danger."

And no, of course you don't need a particular setting element to let PCs be awful--but a setting element that says slavery (and don't forget, sex slavery with the creation of muls) is an accepted societal norm in many ways gives people permission to be awful, where they might have chosen otherwise before. At the risk of going too far into politics for this forum, look at how, when bigoted people get elected into office, it emboldens people to openly act more bigoted, instead of keeping it to themselves.

I don't think WotC wants to give that permission, and I can't say I blame them.

Some people will be awful, and being afraid of a topic because somebody can be awful with it does not mean that removing the element will make the people stop being awful. It just means they'll be awful about something else.

As for as my own feelings on Dark Sun, while I read a number of the novels and found them interesting, I never had any interest in playing the setting. Part of that was that I really disliked the D&D system at the time* (5E got me to like it again), and part was that playing in grimdark settings (for example, White Wolf's edgier cousin, Black Dog) doesn't really appeal to me.

* Note: I liked the D&D worlds — I read a huge number of the various Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/Dark Sun/etc novels — I just didn't like the game system.

I wasn't much interested in Dark Sun myself; it just never grabbed me in the way that Ravenloft and Planescape did (I liked the monsters, though). My sum total of D&D novels read are maybe 2-4 Ravenloft books. I would have been fine to play in the setting, but I never had any interest in running it.

However just because it doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean I think the very concepts should be suppressed and censored. People like lots of things that I don't care for. I like things my friends don't care for. If something was particularly offensive to someone I knew, I'd avoid bringing it up, but the only thing I'd actively argue down are actual lies, and maybe stupidity.

I'm just not convinced that it's truly censorship, not in the way you're thinking. I had a copy of D'Aulaires Book of Greek Myths as a child, which is a highly sanitized, kid-friendly version of those myths, and we all know how terrible Greek myths can be. But clearly adult versions of those same myths were readily available at the same time. Likewise, unless things change radically in the immediate future, 2e and 4e versions of Dark Sun would still be available for sale even if a 5e version (or One, or 3pp version) was sold without anything resembling slavery in it. So... what's being censored? Not slavery, because that's still going to be available, just not in that particular book. It would be like saying that a Ravenloft book about Barovia is censoring information about Darkon, when Darkon wasn't the scope of that book in the first place.

Do we think that WotC/DM's Guild is going to pull every older copy of Dark Sun because of slavery? Considering that there are two threads talking about Gaz10, which is still for sale, I for one highly doubt that.

Dark topics have their place, and oftimes a very important place for certain people in certain points in their lives. For example, see Neon Genesis Evangelion, which had an element which could be perceived as slavery, but which had a deep and meaningful impact on many people's lives, my own included.

NGE is a very different type of media than an immersive RPG. I mostly recall thinking get on with it! while watching that show.

But here's the other thing. You (generic you, not you personally) are not qualified to determine what will be important or meaningful for anyone else. What you (again, generic) are qualified to do is run a game that's fun for everyone at your table. And for a lot of people, slavery, especially the way Dark Sun does it, isn't fun.

And you--as you (specifically) noted above--don't need to have slavery be an official setting element, because you can just add it in, if you wanted.

 

[Kaodi]

Any other idea? A almost reboot of the setting where time-travelers from the future altered the past, avoiding the worst damage in the ecological system and the genocides of the cleasing wars. But it is not a complete happy end because the sorcerer-kings created a demiplane to save their own timeline. Then the apocalypse hasn't been avoided totally but only delayed. The irony is souls of the evil people are sent to the distopian demiplane, and the souls of the innocent can reincarnated in the utopian timeline.

Time travel is a genocide where no one remembers the victims.

 

[Lanefan]

Hang on, am I reading that right? Your players actually attacked other players, and then gave those PC's to slavers because some of your players wanted to sell prisoners as slaves?

OMG. Seriously?

"Seriously" had rather little to do with it; at the time we were all too busy laughing at how one crazy unexpected thing just kept leading to another.

But yes, PvP is very much allowed in my games as long as it stays in character, and this is how it manifested this time. One of the PCs had been a slaver in her pre-adventuring days. While the party was rounding up some prisoners after a battle she came out with her now-legendary quote "Stop taking prisoners and start taking inventory!", and from there things spiralled down a rabbit hole of chaos as on reaching town two PCs tried to disrupt the rest of them selling these guys.

End result: I don't think the prisoners ever did get sold (alerted by the two renegade PCs, the local authorities intervened; slaving was technically illegal in that town even if the authorities often turned a well-bribed blind eye to it) but those two PCs ended up tied up in a hotel room, and a note was slipped to the local slavers to let them know where they could get a few freebies.

The players - including those of the two now-slaves - were all cool with this; in fact, this whole episode was entirely player-driven, with me-as-DM pretty much stuck in "react mode" throughout.

That was all 14-ish years ago; we still laugh about the story today, and a few of the characters involved are still active.

 

[tetrasodium]

Let's remember even if WotC published a totally "clean" DS book, and and almost players were "nice" in their games, in the internet age with rule34 and where even there is NSFW content of ¡my little pony! DS would be too "apetizing" for certain pervert no-fandom minds.

The origin of "50 shadows of Gregory" was adult fan-fiction with the main characters of "Twighlight" saga. You should guess the potential risk if the worst "jump the shark", becoming an ersatz of Gor saga.

WotC could publish new novels, comics and even a videogame (I would bet for the genre survival, something style Walheim, the Forest, Grounded or Conan Exiles) but there are some risks by fault of toxic creators if DS is unlocked in DMGuild.

Any other option? To be licenced to a serious 3PP, for example Renegade Games or Onyx Path, but it wouldn't be necessary because the key is to allowd the unlocking in DM Guild.

Any other idea? A almost reboot of the setting where time-travelers from the future altered the past, avoiding the worst damage in the ecological system and the genocides of the cleasing wars. But it is not a complete happy end because the sorcerer-kings created a demiplane to save their own timeline. Then the apocalypse hasn't been avoided totally but only delayed. The irony is souls of the evil people are sent to the distopian demiplane, and the souls of the innocent can reincarnated in the utopian timeline.

Funny you mention time travel

Spoiler

66th Kings age

Wind's Defiance (Free Year -9569)​

Mareet, ruler of Saragar, is visited by a time-traveler from the future. He tells the king an appending doom to Athas before disappearing. Obsessed with the warning, Mareet orders his most powerful psionicists to breach the time stream and determine the nature of the warning. They are later joined by a third psionicist

Desert's Slumber (Free Year -9549)​

The psionicists breach the time barrier and learn of the impending Cleansing Wars, Rajaat, and defiling magic. Mareet wants to warn all of Athas, but the psionicists disagree and take control of their leader. The three use their formidable powers to shield Saragar from the rest of the world. The Mind Lords are born.

That's the thing about darksun, the easy solutions just swap one possibly localized part of the problem with another possibly localized problem