D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Irlo]

we don't have the right to say that they can't or shouldn't play that way.

It’s very possible I missed something. It’s a long, convoluted thread. Is anyone saying they can’t or shouldn’t?

 

[Cergorach]

How many movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying slavers and slaves? How many movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying abusers and the abused? How many movies and tv shows have actors roleplaying torturers and the tortured? A whole hell of a lot of them.

As others have mentioned TV/Movie/book/comic are all already scripted media. Pnp RPGs isn't scripted, that is the whole point. As a DM I might portray the evil torturer or slaver, but I have a different investment into my Player Character. If I was playing an evil torturer or slaver as a PC that would be something completely different from DMing one, something I'm not really comfortable with. Especially when you start to RP the torture or the slave beatings... Yeah, not happening!

The problem with Dark Sun isn't that slavery is a background plot device, but is a huge part of the world and no way to really change that. After all the people running said city states are not exactly simple mortal entities that you can easily defeat or assassinate. Even rebellion would probably be put down with immense power. Even if the characters were motivated to overthrow/kill a Sorcerer-King, they would still need to reach level 20+ to do it, that would be a long campaign and they would have to interact with slavery on a regular basis. I can see why that isn't for everyone and why that isn't exactly a good campaign setting for a bunch of randoms in a game store.

 

[Maxperson]

I think there's more at play than just that here, but I think it should be considered how people will interact with things. I'm reminded that in Pathfinder Society for a while you could purchase a slave. That obviously did not go over well with a lot of people, but it was rules-legal.

5e PHB page 24: "Drow grow up believing that surface-dwelling races are inferior, worthless except as slaves."

5e PHB page 40: "Other scars, though, mark an ore or half-ore as a former slave or a disgraced exile."

5e PHB page 94: "When their target-a notorious slaver-passes the alleyway, the accomplice cries out, the slaver comes to investigate, and the assassin's blade cuts his throat before he can make a sound."

5e DMG Page 19: "The cities of High port and Suderham in the Greyhawk campaign setting are satrapies controlled by agents of a vicious gang of marauders known as the Slave Lords."

5e DMG page 54: "The largest cavern beneath the mountains, called the Great Dismal Delve or the Sevenfold Mazework, is home to the capital city of the dao, the City of Jewels. The dao take great pride in their wealth and send teams of slaves across the plane in search of new veins of ore and gemstones to exploit."

5e DMG page 56: "The heart of the city is the towering Charcoal Palace, where the tyrannical sultan of the efreet reigns supreme, surrounded by efreet nobles and a host of slaves, guardians, and sycophants."

5e DMG page 100: "Details bring a dungeon setting's personality to life. Great bearded faces might be carved on the doors of a dwarven stronghold and might be defaced by the gnolls who live there now. Spiderweb decorations, torture chambers, and slave pens might be common features in a vault built by drow, telling something about that location and its occupants."

5e DMG page 101: "And all the while, a hidden cell of draw scouts watches and plots to slay the mind flayers, then enslave whatever creatures are left."

DMG page 113: "18 Hidden slavers' den"

DMG page 225: "Each orb contains the essence of an evil dragon, a presence that resents any attempt to coax magic from it. Those lacking in force of personality might find themselves enslaved to an orb."

5e Acquisitions Inc pages 123: "Friedson is a North lander wh o has pushed his crew to more and more dangerous and despicable deeds in recent months. He has even talked about taking up full-on piracy and slave trading to earn extra coin, and the (mostly) good souls aboard the Tortured Tortle are looking for a new way to make a living."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 24: "When humans first came to Khorvaire, they enslaved many goblins and built their cities on the foundations of Dhakaani ruins. Galifar ended the practice of slavery, and these goblins are now citizens of the Five Nations."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 112: "Most of the Cyran population fled the goblin uprising, and those who remained were killed or enslaved." and "Lhesh Haruuc has abolished slavery in Rhukaan Draal, but some of clan lords continue this practice."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 139: "This story bears at least some truth. The elves were once slaves of the ancient giants, and the dragons dideradicate the civilizations of Xen'drik."

5e Eberron-Rising From the Last War page 198: "The kobold lord Kethelrax has laid claim to Shaarat Kol in the south of Droaam and leads host of kobolds and goblins-creatures that have been traditionally enslaved and oppressed by the larger and more powerful inhabitants of the region."

5e Ravnica page 221: "These creations become thrulls, obedient slaves that serve in a variety of menial roles: laborers, messengers, beasts of burden, and even fashion accessories for the elite."

I can go on and on, including Tasha's and Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse. 5e has slavery everywhere, including several instances of ongoing legalized slavery. Dark Sun won't even stand out really.

 

[Maxperson]

It’s very possible I missed something. It’s a long, convoluted thread. Is anyone saying they can’t or shouldn’t?

It's implied by pretty much everyone who doesn't want Dark Sun remade or remade with institutionalized slavery as a central element, especially those who say that Dark Sun encourages that sort of play.

 

[Maxperson]

As others have mentioned TV/Movie/book/comic are all already scripted media. Pnp RPGs isn't scripted, that is the whole point.

Whether it's scripted or unscripted doesn't matter. You are playing someone doing heinous things or you are playing someone opposed to it.

Haaram: "We must kill those filthy slavers and releases those that they have captured!"

Durga: "We must kill those filthy slavers and releases those that they have captured!"

Which one of those is a scripted movie and which is an RPG character?

How you come to your words and actions isn't better or worse if someone else wrote down the words for you to say or if you came up with those words yourself.

As a DM I might portray the evil torturer or slaver, but I have a different investment into my Player Character. If I was playing an evil torturer or slaver as a PC that would be something completely different from DMing one, something I'm not really comfortable with. Especially when you start to RP the torture or the slave beatings... Yeah, not happening!

Then don't play one!

That's the great thing about roleplaying. We get to choose our characters and how we play them. We also get to choose our groups and can find like minded people.

I'm personally comfortable playing heroes and villains, both as a player and a DM. I have played thieves, murderers, slavers, as well as those who hate thieves and catch them, PCs that hunt down villainous murderers and those who hate slavers with a passion. What I am not comfortable roleplaying on either side is rape. Nearly 40 years as a player and DM and that one has never been introduced by me on either side of the screen. We all have our limits on what is acceptable and what is not.

The problem with Dark Sun isn't that slavery is a background plot device, but is a huge part of the world and no way to really change that. After all the people running said city states are not exactly simple mortal entities that you can easily defeat or assassinate. Even rebellion would probably be put down with immense power. Even if the characters were motivated to overthrow/kill a Sorcerer-King, they would still need to reach level 20+ to do it, that would be a long campaign and they would have to interact with slavery on a regular basis. I can see why that isn't for everyone and why that isn't exactly a good campaign setting for a bunch of randoms in a game store.

It would be very hard, yes. Not impossible and some campaigns do go to level 20+. For those that do, changing the world is possible, though still very difficult. For those that don't, you can still oppose things locally and do some good, even if you can't change the world.

 

[Faolyn]

Given all the recent OGL controversies and suchlike, I have to ask: can you, legally? 'Cause if yes, that has some very interesting implications elsewhere that I'd be rather keen to follow up on.

I highly doubt Dark Sun as a setting is public domain yet, but I've no idea if that IP was included under the new CC umbrella.

Not public domain; free fan content. Like the netbooks and Quoth the Raven ezine for Ravenloft over on Fraternity of Shadows. Or the monsters I was converting (and will start to convert again) from 2e to Level Up A5e over on the Level Up board.

 

[Irlo]

It's implied by pretty much everyone who doesn't want Dark Sun remade or remade with institutionalized slavery as a central element, especially those who say that Dark Sun encourages that sort of play.

I’ve seen people suggest individuals add stuff at their own tables rather than demand or expect it to be included in published materials. Doesn’t sound like can’t or shouldn’t to me.

The writer implies. The reader infers. Perhaps you and I are just making different inferences.

 

[Maxperson]

I’ve seen people suggest individuals add stuff at their own tables rather than demand or expect it to be included in published materials. Doesn’t sound like can’t or shouldn’t to me.

It has already been included in published materials since day one. See my post above. Dark Sun won't be unique in that regard.

 

[Faolyn]

I don’t think anyone is talking about freedom of expression as a legal right, but as social norm. Arguing that it’s immoral or unethical in absolute terms to portray certain topics in art or other forms of expression - including games - would lead to a cultural chilling effect on what can and cannot be made. That is especially true in a capitalist society and is what I believe people are arguing here when posting their concerns about WotC’s decision. That chilling effect is especially frustrating when people have the freedom instead to say ‘others have the right play or write about x and I have the right to avoid x if it makes me uncomfortable’ without the moral judgement. It becomes terrifying when people start acting like a moral police force.

Would this lead to a "cultural chilling effect"? There are more games than D&D. I'm sure some of them have slavery as an important part of the game, in which case, you can certainly go play one of those, or convert it to D&D (in the same way you can convert 2e Dark Sun to 5e). Or, if these other games don't have slavery as an important part, then perhaps that means that the world is trending away from playing as a slave/slaver, and D&D not publishing a game like that is just following a much greater trend and wouldn't be at all responsible for a cultural chilling.

But anyway, think of it this way:

Ravenloft got a lot of flak for rewriting the setting's lore.

Spelljammer got a lot of flak for not including the setting's lore.

Spelljammer also got a lot of flak for rewriting the hadozee to make them into a former slave race (I've seen plenty of people say that, even if they hadn't included the racist imagery, making the hadozee into a slave race was a terrible and completely unnecessary change).

People give WotC flak for not creating original settings and relying on safe nostalgia.

People give WotC flak for changing older settings to be more original.

So no matter what, WotC would have been dammed if they do and damned if they don't if they had produced Dark Sun.

Included the slavery? Bad. Changed the slavery to serfdom, or so it only involves criminals or POWs? Bad. Rewrote the entire setting so there had never been slavery? Bad.

So, with that in mind, why should WotC make Dark Sun?

It contains unpleasant content and people are going to complain about it no matter what. I would not be at all surprised if none of the developers or creative team felt comfortable with writing a setting where slavery isn't the purview of the Bad Guys but is a normal, culturally-accepted thing, where, in the original first adventure, the players are assumed to be enslaved at its start. And with the OGL kerfuffle, why would they want to so quickly produce a setting that would inevitably make players angry and possibly make more people move away from D&D?

This isn't about social norms or cultural mores or people being too sensitive or not sensitive enough. This is literally because there is no good reason for them to make Dark Sun, and slavery is at the core of it.

 

[Irlo]

It has already been included in published materials since day one. See my post above. Dark Sun won't be unique in that regard.

Yes, it has. It doesn’t always have to be that way.