D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

Is problematic content acceptable if obviously, explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 206 89.2%
  • No.

    Votes: 25 10.8%

Based on Hogwarts Legacy sales figures, controversy doesn’t seem to hurt.

If anything is holding them back it’s either thinking it won’t sell or the creative team not wanting to do Dark Sun until the figure out psionics. I’d personally guess the latter.
This kind of controversy is apparently only a problem if it appears in a TTRPG. The creators of books, TV, and film seem to have a higher opinion of their audience.

And if psionics were the problem, I really wish they would be honest about it.
 

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No, he isn't. He said that they are not doing a Darksun product because of problematic content in Darksun. All the rest of it - the whole "losing problematic content" and whatnot is 100% fabricated. It's just not happening.

The quote is
I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it.

I thing the key is the bolded part. It's not that problematic content is never going to be used. It's the Dark Sun is full to the brim with it.

Dark Sun is an Anti-D&D trope, eco-political edgelord setting. Edgelrd stuff are hard to redo because they are usually filled with cringe, ick, squick, and/or straight problematic stuff. Usuallywhen the eras change it become too unprofitable unless you go the satire or comedy route like Warhammer.

Now does any Dark Sun fans want the setting to be jokey lulz in order to become popular again?
 

This kind of controversy is apparently only a problem if it appears in a TTRPG. The creators of books, TV, and film seem to have a higher opinion of their audience.

And if psionics were the problem, I really wish they would be honest about it.
Dark Sun wouldn't make enough money in 2023 for WOTC to bother with the drama.

WotC of course can't say that.
 

Dark Sun wouldn't make enough money in 2023 for WOTC to bother with the drama.

WotC of course can't say that.
They could say they don't believe it's financially viable. If they weren't shackled to shareholders who have no reason to care about anything but profits, they could be honest.
 

They could say they don't believe it's financially viable. If they weren't shackled to shareholders who have no reason to care about anything but profits, they could be honest.
WOTC can't openly say they only care about mainstream products that would make tons of money. That would anger the fanbase.

Look what happened when they said D&D 5e is undermonetized.... which it is...
5e could make several dozen million per year if 5e had new classes and everyone knows it.
 

When the background for 40k was first being developed, it's intended purpose was to provide a thin veneer to explain why your little metal miniatures and my little metal miniatures were trying to murder one another. And the background works just fine when you read a few paragraphs is a game book tthat includes table top miniatures rules and information about yoru units. In fact, the over-the-top balls-to-the-wall silliness was part of what made 40k so awesome. But in the late 80s and early 1990s, I don't think anyone at GW expected Warhammer 40k to become the juggernaut it is today, and with the rise in popularity of their fiction they realized they kind of painted themselves into a corner. So you end up with an intellectual property whose face is a drugged out, mind washed, genocidal child soldier and is presented as heroic. No matter how you slice it, GW put themselves into a tough spot.
 

Dark Sun wouldn't make enough money in 2023 for WOTC to bother with the drama.

WotC of course can't say that.
That’s the most “logical” answer, at least in terms of corporate logic.

But I don’t want to dismiss the idea that the creative team can’t figure out how to do it in a way they like, or can’t balance their desire to be true to the material with modern market realities, for any of the various reasons discussed in this thread.
 

This kind of controversy is apparently only a problem if it appears in a TTRPG. The creators of books, TV, and film seem to have a higher opinion of their audience.

And if psionics were the problem, I really wish they would be honest about it.
Hogwarts Legacy is a really bad example, because that game ios basically the equiavlent of GAZ10 The Orcs of Thar when it comes to both how it treats Jewish people (and to some degree how it treats trans people), and directly supports a horrific bigot who wants me and others dead (and was originally lead by other bigots)

It's actually an example of how the audience for video games will gladly let creators get away with some awful shite TTRPG makers would never get away with, and how AAA developers have a much lower opinion of their audience than say WoTC has.
 

When the background for 40k was first being developed, it's intended purpose was to provide a thin veneer to explain why your little metal miniatures and my little metal miniatures were trying to murder one another. And the background works just fine when you read a few paragraphs is a game book tthat includes table top miniatures rules and information about yoru units. In fact, the over-the-top balls-to-the-wall silliness was part of what made 40k so awesome. But in the late 80s and early 1990s, I don't think anyone at GW expected Warhammer 40k to become the juggernaut it is today, and with the rise in popularity of their fiction they realized they kind of painted themselves into a corner. So you end up with an intellectual property whose face is a drugged out, mind washed, genocidal child soldier and is presented as heroic. No matter how you slice it, GW put themselves into a tough spot.
I was under the impression that 40k's background originally wasn't just a thin veneer; it was a satire on facism, authoritarianism and extreme violence / support for war at all costs. You are correct with the rest of it though, but I think the reason GW put themselves in a tough spot is that they didn't stick enough to the satirical elements and struggled to recognise the issues that came with not sticking closly.
 

And I wonder if their choice is based in prudence and good sense, or in irrational fear. Is there really any risk of a possible controversy? Was it their choise, or an order from the top, or from outside? Then, in this case, who and why? I can understand in the entertaiment industry there are some rules of political correction, but I see these rules are changing too much in the last years, and not always with a right coherence, and more once because suspicious motives.

Is it a marketing choice based in the good sense, or submission to an ideological agenda? If it the second reason, then I start to worry, and more when more times in the past WotC has talked about "inclusive content". I fear because a thing is told but after the opposite happenes. I am watching several exemples within the entertaiment industry because the companies are losing money because they stopped to be ideologically neutral.

Who could start a controversy linked with DS setting, toxic players, toxic creators in DMGuild or a lobby with no link with the hobby? Kalidnay is in DMGuild, because it was a dread domain within Ravenloft setting.

Really have modern sensibilities changed, or is anybody talking in the name of those modern sensibilities? But what if that anybody is not the true voice of the majority of the public opinion?

Have we lost the good sense? Are we allowing the imposition of new taboos without questioning anything?

What are the criteria for saying when anything can be potentially problematic? who imposes those criteria? Are those criteria really reasonable, or is it a new tiranny in the name of politically correct?

Wouldn't be enough a disclaimer section explaining the players should understand the respect for the human dignity or anything like this?

Why could DS be potentially problematic, but not Ixatlan or Blizzard's Diablo (videogame)?
I believe the decision to pass on DS is based both on prudence and good sense; the two are not mutually exclusive. Warning: big wall of text coming.

I don’t think WotC submits to a certain ideology as much as they adhere to a certain ideology (they stumble and struggle against their own inertia but I’m giving them benefit of the doubt that they are sincere with what they say)

Earlier, @Vaalingrade said that (I’m paraphrasing) « this was then, now we’ve evolved ». I’d rather said that we are evolving; we were evolving back then, we are still evolving now, and I hope we’ll still be evolving in the future. But their point still stands: we are not in the same social context as we were back when DS came out.

A RPG setting isn’t the same as a movie or book or even computer RPG setting. In a movie/book, the setting is a controlable background and it’s easier for the author to make a social commentary in favour or against it. The author is in control of the protagonists actions, thoughts, ethical approach, and evolution of character. In short, the author is capable of nuances, evolving, and basically saying « I don’t approve of this ». As a matter of fact, the more evil the setting, the easiest it becomes to disapprove of it.

A RPG setting is very open. You need to take into consideration that any type of audience will take active participation in it, potentially promoting things that the authors meant to criticize. Personally, I think it can be possible, as a setting author, to clearly state your intentions and basically say « if you twist my words, shame on you ». Still, the chance that people may honestly misinterpret the author’s intentions, or not be educated enough to see faults in the first place, is pretty high. Until recently, I didn’t know about minstrelsies. « How can something minstrel-related be racist I wondered? ». Where we need to be careful about education is that not everyone around the world knows as much about United States history, and that many different countries and cultures tackled similar problems very differently in their history. Now as long as it remains around your home table; it’s cool. But D&D, from WotC’s own intentions, is the public face of the RPG industry. It’s mainstream enough that a lot of uninitiated people get an idea of what’s going on, but not mainstream enough that public at large can differentiate a game from another, or a setting from another. WotC needs to take that into consideration to be the welcoming game to an uninitiated population. Or diverse populations. Or populations that did experience traumas and are only now starting to deal with it publicly (or get public traction in the awareness of said trauma).

This means no Dark Sun because we’re not ready for it, among the community and outside of it. Perhaps in a near future we might be but now we aren’t. This saddens me, but I made my peace with it.
 

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