Dark Sun

[shadowoflameth]

So I've been picking up on the rumor that one of two settings to be coming up from Wizards may be Dark Sun. I have some ideas for a story line. If the setting does not appear soon though, what suggestions might anyone have for a mechanic to use Arcane Defiling in 5e, or is there one out there? The 4E way was not terribly elegant but I don't want to bias anyone. What are your ideas?

 

[Bitbrain]

In my home setting, Arcane Defiling was originally developed from the Blight Spell, so it borrows some of the mechanics of that spell (even though Arcane Defiling isn't itself a spell)

Basically, in my campaign, Arcane Defiling causes the saving throw of a spell to increase by +2, and immediately destroys vegetation in a radius equal to the expended spell slot level x 10 feet (radius of 10 feet if you cast a cantrip). Creatures of the Plant type have disadvantage on the save, and if the spell deals damage, they take maximum damage on a failed saving throw.

 

[Salthorae]

I never played 4e or even 3e Dark Sun, but you could try to use the old 2e mechanics, but set DC based on terrain type instead of caster’s Int score like 2e used.

Preservers didn’t have to check, they got the needed energy for all their spells w/o harmony the environment. Defiling was so powerful because you could actually prepare more spells than normal (or less) and you actually had a faster XP progression. It was basically the dark side, the quick path to power.

If you can make it out attached is the 2e chart.

Tie that to some sliding scale if DC based on terrain and give defilers more or less spells prepared in a day based on their Int check (no proficiencies here!)

 

[Jer]

The 4E way was not terribly elegant but I don't want to bias anyone. What are your ideas?

I know in 2e the defiler/preserver choice was mostly an "off-screen" thing, but I personally like the idea that a spellcaster can choose to either preserve or defile when they cast a spell rather than when they prepare the spell. And that any caster can be tempted to the dark side if they need the power. And that defiling gives a real trade off. So I'd probably consider allowing any spell cast with a spell slot (no cantrips) to be cast in a defiling manner and then allow the caster to have a number of options - maybe they cast the spell as if it were 1 level higher (for spells that allow that), or the saving throw against it is tougher, or they get a bonus to the attack roll. Or - to go back to the idea that defilers get more spells - that you can make a roll to see if you keep the spell slot instead of expending it (maybe an INT save vs. 11 + level of slot?)

As for the trade off - the blight spell that Bitbrain suggests is a good start. But I think there should be some mechanical problem with defiling as well so that it isn't just a roleplaying enforcement for that trade off for real power. And I like the part of 4e where the defiler gets to make a selfish choice to boost their own power at the expense of the rest of the party - to me that fits with the defiler theme from the setting. Maybe everyone else in your party has disadvantage on all rolls for a round? They're resilient enough that the life energy you suck out of the environment doesn't impact them to the level of costing them hp, but they still are disoriented by it and know what you've done and that rattles them. (Or conversely your enemies all get advantage for a round because they know what you've done and it enrages them?)

 

[Zardnaar]

Use the 2E rules or find/write your own. This is what I am using.

Defiling
Wizards and other arcane spell casters draw their power from the plant life of Athas. Any arcane spellcaster can chose to defile but Preservers run the risk of becoming a defiler should they do it too much. All player character spellcasters start the game as preservers.

When an arcane caster casts a spell they can chose to defile as a bonus action. Defiling enhances a spells power and the spell is treated as though it is cast in a higher level spell slot. A defiled spell creates a circle of ash 5’ wide per level of the spell. Any living being caught in the circle of ash has disadvantage on all skill checks until the end of their next turn. In addition plant based beings take 1d8 points of damage per level of the spell.

Defiling leaves behind a tell-tale circle of ash and the average Athasian can recognise the ash circle with a DC 10 intelligence (arcana) check as they have likely hears myths and tales about destructive and evil magic. Clerics, Defilers, Druids, Preservers, have advantage on the roll while Defilers, Templars and servants of the Sorcerer Kings automatically make such a check.

Each time a spellcaster defiles they must make a DC 10 intelligence save. Failure indicates that they lack the required knowledge and skill required to be a preserver and the spell caster becomes a defiler. Defilers no longer have the choice to defile or not and every spell they cast defiles creating a circle of ash. A defiler also finds it harder and harder to gather the extra arcane power and may only enhance a spell via defiling once per short rest. Defilers cannot be of good alignment and any good aligned preserver becoming a defiler changes alignment.

Defilers are generally hunted down and put to death by the populace of Athas. Anyone seen defiling is generally treated as a Defiler. Defilers either hide their power, have a powerful patron for protection or dominate a slave tribe or group of bandits. At the DMs option a defiler has disadvantage on any persuasion rolls they make especially a known defiler.

 

[Salthorae]

That looks like a good system. Is the defiling radius equal to 5’ per spell slot added or total spell slot?

Does a PC get to choose what slot they want to go up to? Can they do slots higher than they are normally allowed?

 

[Zardnaar]

That looks like a good system. Is the defiling radius equal to 5’ per spell slot added or total spell slot?

Does a PC get to choose what slot they want to go up to? Can they do slots higher than they are normally allowed?

Total spell slot level. A 6h level spell slot defiles 30'.

Its quick and dirty, you can use the 2E rules or maybe multiply my rules by X2 and X3 if the land is not fertile (roughly duplicating the 2E idea that varies the defiling by terrain).

 

[Eltab]

I haven't built this out yet, it's just a framework:

If you choose to Defile while casting a spell,
You first cast the Blight spell with a radius of (other spell's level*10 feet) as a free action. Count your kills and add 1 (for the plants in the zone). You get this many power points which you may use to enhance the base spell, using the Sorcerer class feature's mechanics.

A higher-level Defiler can build up a self-reinforcing spiral with his Defiling mechanic, covering a larger and larger area to gain more power to put into the base spell.

A Defiling Sorcerer 20 should be able to defile-cast Meteor Swarm and get an enhanced spell that will cover an entire city and do so much damage that it flattens the buildings and slays everybody inside.

 

[Zardnaar]

I haven't built this out yet, it's just a framework:

If you choose to Defile while casting a spell,
You first cast the Blight spell with a radius of (other spell's level*10 feet) as a free action. Count your kills and add 1 (for the plants in the zone). You get this many power points which you may use to enhance the base spell, using the Sorcerer class feature's mechanics.

A higher-level Defiler can build up a self-reinforcing spiral with his Defiling mechanic, covering a larger and larger area to gain more power to put into the base spell.

A Defiling Sorcerer 20 should be able to defile-cast Meteor Swarm and get an enhanced spell that will cover an entire city and do so much damage that it flattens the buildings and slays everybody inside.

Spells of that power have been done but its NPC type stuff from the Sorcerer Kings usually during the cleansing wars or the aftermath.

To power it you need to defile non plant life which is once again Sorcerer Monarchs and The Dragon.

2E pcs could kind of do some of it level 21 to 30 using Dragon Kings book. You could convert it but its cart before horse atm.

 

[Charlaquin]

I could see Preservation and Defilement being Arcane Traditions in 5e.

 

[Zardnaar]

I could see Preservation and Defilement being Arcane Traditions in 5e.

Doesn't really work as you can change traditions. Also you can have a defiler illusionist or preserver illusionist.

Also some seem to want to add new arcane classes to Athas so they may need to be able to defile. Personally I don't believe in adding new arcane classes to Athas, Sorcerer at a stretch maybe.

 

[Delazar78]

This is how we handle defiling in our DS5 campaign



https://darksun01.blogspot.com/

 

[Charlaquin]

Doesn't really work as you can change traditions. Also you can have a defiler illusionist or preserver illusionist.

Well a preserver illusionist would just be a preservation tradition wizard who chooses a lot of illusion spells. But yes, this model wouldn’t allow for characters who start as defilers and become preservers or vice/versa, at least not without some special rule allowing it in exception to how subclasses normally work. I could still see WotC doing it that way.

Also some seem to want to add new arcane classes to Athas so they may need to be able to defile. Personally I don't believe in adding new arcane classes to Athas, Sorcerer at a stretch maybe.

I absolutely do not see WotC removing any classes from 5e Dark Sun. They’d add the Psion I’m sure, but that’s the only change I think they’d make to the class lineup. Now, that might mean preservation and defililing don’t work as Arcane Traditions, but I could also see WotC deciding that those practices are specific to wizards.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well a preserver illusionist would just be a preservation tradition wizard who chooses a lot of illusion spells. But yes, this model wouldn’t allow for characters who start as defilers and become preservers or vice/versa, at least not without some special rule allowing it in exception to how subclasses normally work. I could still see WotC doing it that way.


I absolutely do not see WotC removing any classes from 5e Dark Sun. They’d add the Psion I’m sure, but that’s the only change I think they’d make to the class lineup. Now, that might mean preservation and defililing don’t work as Arcane Traditions, but I could also see WotC deciding that those practices are specific to wizards.

There are only 4 core races in 5E.

A big part of Athas is the duality between the preserver and defiler wizards and plants being the source of arcane magic. The warlock doesn't really fit due to the pact magic thing, arcane bards don't exist on Athas either, and only the wild sorcerer makes much sense as well. Moon Druids would also be a bit meh due to a good chunk of the critter they can turn into not existing.

They shoehorned stuff into the 4E setting, the conversion was meh on multiple levels. There is room for new classes on Athas IMHO but I odn't think they shoul muck up a good chunk of the lore to fit them in (Paladins, Warlocks, most Sorcerer subclasses/Sorcerer itself, arcane bards).

In 4E terms most classes tied to the arcane power source should not exist on Athas or if they do NPC only IMHO.

Same thing with the races. Gnomes and Half Orcs should be right out, Dragonborn, Drow would be other exclusions.

 

[grimslade]

Dragonborn actually could fit in Darksun. They need to be refluffed to fit Athas much like elves and halflings were. Scalykind who are a younger race who were born at the apotheosis of The Dragon? Sounds good to me. Half-orcs are replaced by Muls. Gnomes are I agree superfluous, but a case could be made for tinker/rock gnomes who try to use gear tech to ply the silt sea? Super rare and not for everyone , so maybe not.

 

[grimslade]

Classes will be hard for Dark Sun. I think Warlock works well for a defiler type or the city state Templars. I also could see vestige deities from before the apotheosis as being patrons, gives a whole dark ancients feel. Paladins are hard. They would need to be reskinned a lot to fit.
I think the path forward for DarkSun 5e is to expand defiler/ preserver beyond just a ‘wizard’ thing and make it for all arcane and divine/elemental classes. A defiler druid and a preserver druid would be more than twisted reflections, they would be akin to a different class. There can be whisper bards and defiler lore bards combing the deserts for ancient knowledge of the early Sorcerer Kings.
I loved Dark Sun 2e but it was great because subverted a lot of the limitations of 2e. Most of those limitations are not present in 5e, so the twist for 5e Athas has to be different or else it is just nostalgia. Defiling was a way to hack slow wizard xp progression. No paladins was because a shining example of lawful goodness for the gods did not fit a dying godless world. A sect of Oath bound warriors drawing power from that bond? That might fit. The problem is making sure we don’t water down Athas with all a regular D&D campaign would offer.

 

[Charlaquin]

There are only 4 core races in 5E.

I didn’t say anything about core classes.

T A big part of Athas is the duality between the preserver and defiler wizards and plants being the source of arcane magic. The warlock doesn't really fit due to the pact magic thing, arcane bards don't exist on Athas either, and only the wild sorcerer makes much sense as well. Moon Druids would also be a bit meh due to a good chunk of the critter they can turn into not existing.

They shoehorned stuff into the 4E setting, the conversion was meh on multiple levels. There is room for new classes on Athas IMHO but I odn't think they shoul muck up a good chunk of the lore to fit them in (Paladins, Warlocks, most Sorcerer subclasses/Sorcerer itself, arcane bards).

In 4E terms most classes tied to the arcane power source should not exist on Athas or if they do NPC only IMHO.

Same thing with the races. Gnomes and Half Orcs should be right out, Dragonborn, Drow would be other exclusions.

I didn’t say it would be a good idea, just that it’s what I see WotC doing.

 

[Eltab]

Moon Druids would also be a bit meh due to a good chunk of the critter they can turn into not existing.

Permit me to introduce you to the Dark Sun Creature Catalogue.
Athas druids turn into Athas critters. Low-level Druid "I wild shape into a Baazrag" DM "Wait, a what?"
But you are still right that the selection of creatures they can turn into is NOT going to be as lush and verdant - excuse me, as long a list - as a world with a healthy ecology, like Oerth.

 

[Zardnaar]

Permit me to introduce you to the Dark Sun Creature Catalogue.
Athas druids turn into Athas critters. Low-level Druid "I wild shape into a Baazrag" DM "Wait, a what?"
But you are still right that the selection of creatures they can turn into is NOT going to be as lush and verdant - excuse me, as long a list - as a world with a healthy ecology, like Oerth.

A lot of the Athas critter won't be beasts due to psionic. They will be like giant vultures which druids can't turn into. The Athas bears, great cats etc equivalents will be off limits. No turning into Klaar, Kirre etc.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If psionics comes naturally to a life form, I see no reason to preclude it being a Beast. An organism does not need to be sentient to use psionics.