Darkness and the Black Dragon - Need advice

[FireLance]

I'd love to see someone suggesting some house ruled variant that keeps the Black Dragons theme and role but adds more tension and variation to the encounter?

Remove the sustain minor from the cloud of darkness, but make it a burst 4. Knock its Stealth modifier down to +12 and give it +1d6 damage against creatures it has combat advantage against. The black dragon now turns the lights out in a larger area, but he can't reliably keep them out. That plus the damage bonus he gets when he has combat advantage encourages him to use the time to set up a good attack. With the lower Steath, characters only need a decent Perception to locate his position and direct attacks. I personally would drop its defenses by two points across the board, but if you think its base stats are okay for its level, you can leave them alone.

 

[Noumenon]

Rather than making it a full-fledged rogue, how about just giving it concealment inside the darkness (-2 to hit) and giving it combat advantage against anything inside the darkness?

 

[Mesh Hong]

Rather than making it a full-fledged rogue, how about just giving it concealment inside the darkness (-2 to hit) and giving it combat advantage against anything inside the darkness?

One of the general criticisms of the MM1 dragons is that they don't do enough damage. Given that it is a common trait of Lurkers to gain additional damage when given combat advantage it seems to be a neat solution, one which the players would not find out of place or unusual.

As to the actual effect of the Cloud of Darkness there are probably many equally valid ways of changing it. Making it simply grant concealment instead of blocking line of sight and blinding is one of them.

I quite like my proposal, but then I wouldn't have posted it otherwise.

I also can see the merits of Firelance's proposal. I think it would not be unreasonable to use my effect for young black dragons and Firelance's for adult black dragons. This would actual result in a nicely organic effect where the black dragon is delevoping its Cloud of Darkness ability as it ages.

 

[OchreJelly]

If I were to change it, I would simply do as someone else suggested earlier and make the dragon create squares of heavy obscurement. This works well for two reasons:
1) It's simple. It works well within an already established system without needing to create an exception rule for resolution.
2) Melee attackers suffer a -2 to attack rolls (assuming they are adjacent) while ranged attackers are still penalized at -5. This keeps it in line with the flavor but probably gives the party more opportunities to try and lock down the dragon in the cloud. Since PCs wouldn't be blind they could still flank the dragon. The dragon can also still attempt to hide in the cloud as well.

 

[Klaus]

Tecnically you would be aware of the dragon the moment you would enter his space, so you can find him this way using your move actions (stealth rules support this idea). I was never worried about this to be honest.

But fight in his terms is... difficult (remmember the AC=22+5=27). Fight in the "best tactical way" can be extremely boring in my personal oppinion (I see a 4 hour encounter).

Actually, unless the dragon makes a Stealth check at the end of a move action, it is not hidden. You know in which square it is, even if it benefits of Total Concealment, due to non-visual clues. Even if the dragon moves up to 2 squares and makes a Stealth check, you're immediately aware of where it's at if it makes an attack (with, say, its breath weapon).

If the PCs can get up to +3 bonuses to attack rolls, the effective defenses of the Black Dragon will be on par with a Level 4 solo soldier.

A level 4 Rogue's attack bonus would be +5 (Dex 20) +2 (level) +1 (magic weapon) +4 (dagger), for a total of +12. He use Piercing Strike to attack the dragon's Reflex 20, hitting on a 13+ (taking into account -5 penalty from total concealment). If he targets AC, he hits on a 15+. If he uses a power like Blinding Barrage (close blast), he hits on a 10+.

Looking at the dragon's defenses, characters would be better served by targeting its Will or Fortitude. It's the DM's job to convey this information, saying black dragons are less sturdy as their kin, and have a reputation for being weak-willed cowards, with no stomach for a straight-up fight, but that it is very agile, with snake-like reflexes.

 

[msherman]

I also can see the merits of Firelance's proposal. I think it would not be unreasonable to use my effect for young black dragons and Firelance's for adult black dragons. This would actual result in a nicely organic effect where the black dragon is delevoping its Cloud of Darkness ability as it ages.

I think your version is actually a bit stronger than Firelance's, because you switched it to a minor. With your version, the dragon is attacking every turn, with CA on average half the time. With Firelance's, he's attacking every other turn (1 turn to activate the cloud and hide, the next turn to attack with CA).

Both ideas solve the problem nicely, but I prefer Firelance's version, for a couple reasons: first, your version is a bit of a unique mechanic to remember at the table; that's fine if it has unique results, but if you can accomplish the same goal with a more standard mechanic, it's preferable. Second, the hide-then-attack tempo with Firelance's version is closer to the original in feel -- people will still think of a black dragon as a turtler, without being annoyed by it like they were with the original.

I'm leveling up a young black to 7. I gave him 2d6 for CA (with melee only) -- I couldn't find any level 7 lurkers in either MM with a CA power, but I found a level 8 with 2d6. I also dropped stealth by 5, removed the sustain on the darkness, and bumped the size to 3 -- 6x6 seems like a big enough size to be effective without dominating the entire field.

Finally, following the MM2 pattern for solos, I reduced the HP to 6/lvl (the lurker standard) instead of the 8/lvl for all solos, dropped all defences by 2, and added an extra damage power that only works while bloodied: Acid Blood: immediate reaction (only when bloodied), any melee attacker that hits the dragon is splashed with blood for 1d6 acid damage.

 

[Mesh Hong]

I think your version is actually a bit stronger than Firelance's, because you switched it to a minor. With your version, the dragon is attacking every turn, with CA on average half the time. With Firelance's, he's attacking every other turn (1 turn to activate the cloud and hide, the next turn to attack with CA).

Yeah I see what you are saying, but with my version the Dragon is never hidden from the players in their own turn. So effectively it isn't hiding inside a cloud, it is using the cloud for a brief advantage.

Both ideas solve the problem nicely, but I prefer Firelance's version, for a couple reasons: first, your version is a bit of a unique mechanic to remember at the table; that's fine if it has unique results, but if you can accomplish the same goal with a more standard mechanic, it's preferable. Second, the hide-then-attack tempo with Firelance's version is closer to the original in feel -- people will still think of a black dragon as a turtler, without being annoyed by it like they were with the original.

Yes I like both ideas as well. I don't think mine is actually difficult to run at the table, but I can see how players might be surprised by it as it uses conditions in a slightly different way (i.e. the dazed only lasts until the end of the Dragons turn, not until the end of their turn).

I think a problem with the dragon having to set the cloud of darkness up with a standard action is that the dragon is not getting to attack, which makes it less of a threat (in theory, or at least in perception). If the Dragon can maintain a constant attack then the encounter will be more exciting, and with my mechanic a lot more mobile (which is always a good thing with solos).

Anyway, I am not sure what the pupose of these comments are as I agree that I like both solutions. And there are probably many more solutions that are equally good. It all comes down to game style and player expections in the end so its all good.

I'm leveling up a young black to 7. I gave him 2d6 for CA (with melee only) -- I couldn't find any level 7 lurkers in either MM with a CA power, but I found a level 8 with 2d6. I also dropped stealth by 5, removed the sustain on the darkness, and bumped the size to 3 -- 6x6 seems like a big enough size to be effective without dominating the entire field.

Finally, following the MM2 pattern for solos, I reduced the HP to 6/lvl (the lurker standard) instead of the 8/lvl for all solos, dropped all defences by 2, and added an extra damage power that only works while bloodied: Acid Blood: immediate reaction (only when bloodied), any melee attacker that hits the dragon is splashed with blood for 1d6 acid damage.

Please report back how well this modified Dragon performed.

Good hunting

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem is that hiding in a cloud for a turn doesn't give the dragon the ability to hit and run.

The dragon is a -Lurker- but using the ability like that is a Soldier tactic.

The major problem people have with the dragon is that they don't like the pure Lurker fight. That's a matter of taste, but it should be accounted for in encounter design, not in monster design.

I guarantee, a fight of 5 imps, turning purely invisible, will be -just as unfun- for that party. Is it because imps are poorly designed? No. It's because they're designed right, and your party does not like that style of encounter.

If the party doesn't like to have to react to the monsters, then don't face them against controllers, or lurkers, and simply put them against an unending army of minions and brutes and soldiers, and they'll be happy. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Garthanos]

Totally agree there is definitely player types who wont like it even if you suggest a solution - know your players (they will have fun fun with there own solutions)

Argghh responding to Dracos way earlier post.. never mind... the forum interface acted wierd...